DOKAZI (OT)PADA ADVENTISTIČKE CRKVE

SDA crkva ~ "Record"
Korišćenje farmaceutskih proizvoda kako način namamljivanja u SDA crkvu.

Logo humanitarne organizacije ADRA, slično kao kod Hope Channel. Zapazite kako uzdignute ruke oblikuju piramidu, a glava u piramidi svevideće Horusovo (Sotonino) oko.
Kao što vidite, svuda same podvale. Kome je to svojstveno?

Mindanao SDA Sanitorijum i bolnički koledž Medical Arts Foundation - Iligan City, Maskenbal na Filipinima
- Obratite pažnju na pagansko lice Vala sa "dobrodošlicom" za adventiste seniore i vudu karakteristike ove maske.



Detalj sa iste "zabave"

Februar 1987, naslovna strana časopisa "Znaci vremena": Globalna vizija Jovana Pavla (očito imali su "viziju" i obavili "misiju" u SDA)

ADVENTISTIČKA CRKVA I NEOPAGANSKO VJEŠTIČARENJE
Slika lijevo: sa glavne strane Svjetskog savjeta crkava (WCC)
Slika desno: sa Wiccan (vračarskog) websajta
Šta vidimo na ovim slikama: rimokatolički oltar, saten koji se prostire po oltaru iz krsta i po podu (u rimokatolicizmu "saten" je simbol krvi). Na slici desno imamo jasnu simboliku. Iznad se nalazi Sotonino svevideće oko.
Ako se pitate kakve ovo veze ima sa SDA, evo dokaza da je SDA član Svjetskog saveza crkava:
http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches.html
(spisak članica sa zvaničnog sajta WCC)

Na pitanja o članstvu u WCC i NCC, vođstvo SDA crkve i njihovi glasnogovornici uporno će poricati. Ali "ako laže koza, ne laže rog," kako glasi jedna simpatična narodna poslovica. Evo samo nekih od dokaza i to još od prije par decenija (možemo pretpostaviti dokle su danas došli):

NOVČANA PODRŠKA
"The Seventh-day Adventist Church...does not pay one cent in support of it [the WCC]." Adventist Review, January 3, 1985, p 4.

Is this true? What do the documented facts declare?
In the year 1959, the SDA church sent a total of $6,700 for the support of the National Council of Churches (see Letter from the National Council of Churches, January 29, 1960, Donald F. Landwer, Assistant General Secretary for [NCC] Finance).
In 1969 they gave a total of $5,950 for NCC support (see Letter from the National Council of Churches, April 7, 1970, Constant H. Jacquet, Director Research Library).
In fact, in 1984, the SDA church itself admittedly gave $8,000 to the World and National Councils of Churches, and then stated:
"This is apparently what it has been running for the last few years." Letter from the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, June 13, 1985, Mitchell A. Tyner, Esq., Associate Director and Legal Counsel of the Department of Public Affairs and Religious Liberty. Also see Letter from the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, October 23, 1984, from W.L. Murrill, Undertreasurer.

ČLANSTVO
What former president of the General Conference had to say:
"The Seventh-day Adventist church is not, has not been, will not be a member of the World Council of Churches. I don't care what evidence you have printed to the contrary. It is simply a fabrication; it is not true; it is a lie; it is a distortion. I want to make sure you understand it. There is NO: there is no membership or intention of becoming a member....We are not and will not be. I hope you can take that to the bank as a statement of categorical, undeniable truth. And anything that you receive printed to the contrary, tear it up, throw it in the waste paper basket; its simply not the truth!" Robert Folkenberg, "Issues and Interviews" on SDA radio station--KCDS in Angwin, California, February 19, 1993.

However, the SDA church was listed as associate members and cooperating members of the National Council of Churches in 1959 (see Letter from the National Council of Churches, August 7, 1959, Wesley B. Goodman, Associate Executive Director).
The SDA church was listed as one of the member-units of the NCC in 1964 (see Letter from the National Council of Churches, January 13, 1965, Wilbur C. Parry, Assistant Council Secretary).
The SDA church had General Conference representatives as members on two Commissions of the NCC in 1983 (see Letter from the National Council of the Churches of Christ, Office of Research, Evaluation and Planning, September 26, 1983, from Constant H. Jacquet, Jr., Staff Associate for Information Services). And had representatives as members on three Commissions and more than four Committees of the NCC in 1984 (see Letter from the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, June 13, 1985, Mitchell A. Tyner, Esq., Associate Director and Legal Counsel of the Department of Public Affairs and Religious Liberty).

But does the SDA church have such a close working relationship with the NCC/WCC that they are accepted as a voting member in any of their programs? What does the SDA church state?
"We [Seventh-day Adventists] do not vote in their [NCC] activities. We are not members [of the NCC] and cannot vote." Letter from the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, January 25, 1967, from D.W. Hunter, Associate Secretary.

"As Seventh-day Adventists who go to the meetings of the World Council of Churches do so as observers, without delegate status of any kind, they have neither the right to speak or to vote." Letter from the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, April 14, 1970, from W.R. Beach, Secretary.

What do the documented facts reveal about this issue?
"The Seventh-day Adventist Church does hold voting membership in several of our [NCC] program units and in addition has non-voting or associate membership in other units." Letter from the National Council of Churches of Christ, January 29, 1960, from Donald F. Landwer, Assistant General Secretary for Finance.

"Over one hundred theologians met in Lima, Peru, in January, 1982, and recommended [voted] unanimously to transmit this agreed statement--the Lima text--for the common study and official response of the churches. They represented virtually all the major church traditions: Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Old Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Reformed, Methodist, United, Disciples, Baptist, Adventist and Pentecostal." Faith and Order Paper #111, Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry, back cover, published by the World Council of Churches, Geneva, 1982.

The SDA church is also a member of the NCC by way of the local SDA churches belonging to the Ministerial Associations in their communities. (A Ministerial Association is composed of different churches within a local community.)

During the week before Christmas of 1994, the SDA church and the NCC joined together to nationally televise the Christmas Eve Special "A New Noel"! (see Adventist Review, December 15, 1994, p 7). This broadcast was video-taped at a Sunday church service on December 4 in the Pioneer Memorial SDA church at Andrews University, and the devotional message was presented by SDA minister Dwight Nelson (see Adventist Review, December 4, 1994, p 7). It was nationally televised on Christmas eve (11:30pm Saturday till 12:30am Sunday) through the ABC-TV network, and the SDA church placed a paid advertisement in 14,000,000 copies of the TV Guide (see Adventist Review, December 15, 1994, p 7).
The paid advertisement of this event, as well as the televised opening credits for the program, stated:
"The National Council of Churches presents a production of the Seventh-day Adventist Church." Adventist Review, December 15, 1994, p 7 (See also TV Guide, December 24-30, 1994, p 55, vol 42, #52, Issue #2178).

MIJENJANJE DOKTRINE KAO USLOV UDRUŽIVANJA
Direct conversations between the WCC and the SDA church officials began during the mid 1960's--especially in 1966. These direct conversations led the SDA church leadership to push the church towards compromising the peculiar truths contained in the three angel's messages of Revelation 14. Their goal was to ignore those doctrines which differed with the other churches within the WCC, in order to teach only those doctrines held in common.
The SDA church leadership states:
"Today the old largely negative approach--emphasizing chiefly the things wherein we differ from all other religious groups--is past, definitely past. And that is as it should be." Ministry Magazine, March, 1966, p 10.

"The Adventist church today is better prepared to make common cause with these other evangelicals than at any previous time in its history." Ministry Magazine, June, 1966, p 19-20.
As a result of the SDA church joining this apostasy and agreeing to teach in common with the rest of the apostate churches, top WCC officials along with top SDA leaders, met together in 1972 to discuss SDA church union directly with the WCC. These meetings were reported in the Protestant paper; Christian Beacon. The report states:
"The Seventh-Day Adventists and representatives of the World Council of Churches have met with joint chairmen discussing the membership of the Seventh-Day Adventists in the WCC. In preparation for the reception, discussions are to be carried on now on the local and national levels. The dialogue on the top level was led by Dr. Lucas Vischer, secretary for the Faith and Order Commission, and Dr. B.B. Beach of the Seventh-Day Adventists. The WCC leaders are especially anxious to include the world activities of the Seventh-Day Adventists." Christian Beacon, vol 37, #47, December 28, 1972.
What was the end result of these meetings? Is the SDA church directly listed as being in union with, and connected with, the WCC?
In 1985, the WCC published Directory of Christian Councils, which is a directory listing all of its member-unit churches throughout the world--including those churches found within the NCC and various other branches. The following is a listing of SDA church union, membership, and participation with the WCC throughout the world:

Fraternal associates:
Kenya, Africa--"Church of the East African Union--Seventh Day" Directory, p 15.

Associate members:
Rwanda, Africa--"Eglise adventiste du septie'me jour (Seventh Day Adventist Church)" Directory, p 35.
Solomon Islands--"Seventh Day Adventist Church" Directory, p 195.

Observers:
Finland--"Adventist Church" Directory, p 133.
German Democratic Republic--"Gemeinschaft der Siebenten-Tags-Adventisten (Seventh Day Adventists)" Directory, p 139.

Consultant-observers:
United Kingdom--"Seventh Day Adventists" Directory, p 163.

Membership:
Bahamas--"Seventh Day Adventist Church" Directory, p 99.
Belize--"Seventh Day Adventist Church" Directory, p 100.
Cook Islands--"Seventh Day Adventist Church" Directory p 189.
Sweden--"Seventh Day Adventist Church" Directory, p 144.

But after listing all of their various branch organizations and member-units or churches, the WCC makes this final statement:
"In addition to the relationships with regional and national councils of churches mentioned above, the WCC is in working relationship with many Christian World Communions, including the Anglican Consultative Council, Baptist World Alliance, Disciples Ecumenical Consultative Council, Friends World Committee for Consultation, General Conference of Seventh Day Adventists, Lutheran World Federation, Mennonite World Conference, Old Catholic International Organization, Reformed Ecumenical Synod, Salvation Army, World Alliance of Reformed Churches, World Convention of Churches of Christ, World Evangelical Fellowship, and World Methodist Council." Directory of Christian Councils, p 244.
In 1973 the SDA church co-authored a book along with the WCC entitled: So Much In Common. And on the back cover it clearly states that this book was written by the "World Council of Churches and Seventh-day Adventist Church."
In 1983, the WCC was holding their Sixth Assembly in Vancouver, Canada, and the SDA church was represented in attendance. The following report to the SDA people was titled as follows:
"Adventists Find Friends At The World Council of Churches" Messenger, September, 1983, p 5.

In another SDA church paper, Douglas Devnich, who was a representative of the SDA church at this 1983 WCC Assembly (and who later became the president of the Canadian Union Conference of SDA's), states:
"...the W.C.C. is not to be faulted on what it endeavors to do....The call comes out of Vancouver in 1983 for a New World Order....
"My point is that the W.C.C., as the most powerful Christian social agency may well be the world's answer to idealize as well as apply the social ministry of Jesus Christ...and in the establishment of the literal Kingdom of God." Ministry Magazine, November, 1983.
Clearly, the SDA church is completely in union with the other denominations and religions, and is indeed working towards a One World Religion and church! This is positively substantiated by the following fact.
In 1993, representatives of the world's religions met in Chicago, Illinois at the World Parliament of Religions. This meeting was established to finalize plans for a One World Church. Their September 5th declaration for the global ethic was signed, "calling for the merger of all the religions of earth--the world religions to become one" (The World's Last Dictator, p 98, by Dwight L. Kinman). And which churches were represented as being in attendance?
"The Dalai Lama was there who believes that he is a man god. Joan Campbell, the feminist and director of the Marxist-slanted National Council of Churches, was there. The Lucius Trust representatives of the New Age religion were there. Voodoo, high priests, and wicka groups, and witchcraft were all there. High free Masons attended. The Seventh Day Adventist church was represented. Serpent charmers and druids and Satan worshippers, liberal Baptists, Zoroastrians to Zen Buddhists were all represented. The World Council of Churches and the powerful church of Rome were highly represented. They met to celebrate `unity in Diversity.'" The World's Last Dictator, p 97-98.

U adventističkom "Vatikanu"

SDA crkva u Bundabergu, Kvinslend, Australija. Građevina u rimokatoličkom stilu sa "neizbježnim" falusom i Dagonovom mitrom.

Zapazite "rog izobilja" na ovoj slici (za više detalja o ovom simbolu vidi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornucopia ). Ali ono što zapravo svjedoči o dubokom otpadu je poruka koja se nalazi na dnu:
"Poštuj me (u smislu bogoslužbenog strahopoštovanja), ja sam tvoje mjesto bogosluženja, ja sam Gospodnja svetinja." Zbog ove "nauke" mnogi adventisti nikad neće ostaviti svoj "hram" jer su naučeni da služe "crkvi."

ADVENTIZAM I MANJE POZNATE ČINJENICE IZ II SVJETSKOG RATA

Seventh Day Adventists
by Corrie Schroder

Nazi Germany was a horrible place for small denominational churches because there was no religious liberty. One small denomination that survived was the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. When Adolf Hitler rose to power in Germany, the German Seventh-day Adventist denomination (hereafter referred to as Adventists) believed it was time for a strong leader in Germany. Hitler seemed to be the best candidate because of “his personal dedication and his abstinence from tea, coffee, alcohol and meat, practices shared by the Adventists, [therefore] he was welcomed as a savior.”[1]  I hope to point out, because of the willingness to compromise the decent of the German Adventist denomination from the moral issues listed below, to where they ended at the end of World War II.  They ended in compromise, loss of personal integrity, and denominational integrity, splitting of the denomination and were racially damaged as a Christian organization because they were unable to hold fast to the tenets of their beliefs.  They tied the denomination to the German State giving up their religious freedom in attempt to survive through compromises.  This position of compromise brought shame upon the German denomination as well as the worldwide denomination after the end of World War II.

The Seventh-day Adventists evolved doctrinally from the interfaith Millerite movement of 1831. Adventists believe in religious liberty, to such a point that church and state are to remain separate. They are also conscientious objectors. When Adventists are required to join the military they apply for positions where they do not have to bear arms, for example the medical corps. There are 27 fundamental beliefs that the Seventh-day Adventists believe. The following four fundamental beliefs listed are the ones that pertain to my topic:

The “Holy Scriptures, Old and New Testaments, are the written Word of God.”[2]
The God Head or Trinity: “there is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons.”[3]
Spiritual Gifts and Ministries, “God bestows upon all members of His church in every age spiritual gifts which each member is to employ in loving ministry for the common good of the church and of humanity.”[4]
Christian Behavior, “We are called to be godly people who think, feel, and act in harmony with the principles of heaven.”[5]
The Seventh-day Adventist denomination was not officially organized until May 21, 1863, even though the name had been chosen in 1860. At that time, the movement included 125 churches and 3,500 members.[6]  The Adventist church spread first throughout North America. After 1874, the denomination spread throughout Europe. In 1888, L.R. Conradi became the founder of the German Adventist church. He established headquarters for the Adventist Church in Hamburg, Germany in 1889.[7]  Conradi also established the first Adventist school in Germany near Magdeburg, called Friedensau Missionary Seminary.

A Seventh-day Adventist - in Germany - had many difficulties. The two main difficulties were their children had to attend school on Saturday, which is considered the Sabbath by Adventists. The second difficulty was the mandatory military service.[8] Refusing to send their children to school and not joining the military were punishable by imprisonment. The problem with the schools was solved by a compromise. The government authorities allowed Adventist children to study their bibles while in school on the Sabbath.[9] Military service posed two problems, working on the Sabbath and bearing arms. These problems were never truly solved, but “army medical examiners began to find all manner of excuses for rejecting Seventh-day Adventist recruits.”[10] This rejection of Seventh-day Adventist men ended with the start of World War I. This caused a problem within the Seventh-day Adventist denomination in Germany.

The Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement
The Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement came about because of the controversy over military service. During World War I, the German Seventh-day Adventists churches belonged to different Unions, North, South, East, and West, but all were under the guidance and control of the European Division. The European Division’s headquarters was located in Hamburg, Germany. The main problem was that most of the members serving as Division leaders lived outside of Germany and because of the war, travel and communication were difficult.[11]

With the outbreak of the war and the mobilization of troops in Germany, the German Adventist leaders decided, “Adventist men could enter the military and serve as combatants and even ignore traditional Sabbath observance.”[12] This caused major problems within the Adventist community, because they had always served in the military as non-combatants. The rank and file members believed that actively participating in war broke the fourth and sixth biblical commandments.[13] The fourth commandment is “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.” When entering military service, keeping the fourth commandment is no longer a priority, because the warring sides do not take into account what day it is. The sixth commandment is “You shall not murder.” If you take a combatant role in war it is nearly impossible not to kill someone.

During the American Civil War in 1864, the Seventh-day Adventists declared,

The denomination of Christians calling themselves Seventh-day Adventists, taking the Bible as their rule of faith and practice, are unanimous in their views that its teaching are contrary to the spirit and practice of war; hence, they have ever been conscientiously opposed to bearing arms.[14]

But during World War I, the German Seventh-day Adventist denomination went against the General Conference and decided to become combatant instead of remaining non-combatant. This caused a small group of Seventh-day Adventists to split from the main body of the German Seventh-day Adventist Church. This small sect called itself the Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement (hereafter referred to as the Reformers). The Reformers believed they were remaining “faithful to the law of God, upholding the original position, as taught and practiced up to that time.”[15] They were remaining faithful, because they refused to be combatants during WWI. It was acceptable to the Reformers to join the military as non-combatant, but to join as combatants was against God’s law and the doctrines of the Adventist Church.

After the World War I, the German Adventist leaders admitted that they had been wrong when they said it was not against God’s law to join the military in a combatant role. During the European Division meeting at Gland, Switzerland, on January 2, 1923, the German Adventist leaders, to show that they believed in a non-combatant role, stated that, they were in complete ‘harmony with the general teachings of their brethren of that denomination throughout the world.’ But this declaration was weakened by the additional pronouncement which read: ‘We grant to each of our church members absolute liberty to serve his country, at all times and in all places, in accord with the dictates of his personal conscientious conviction.[16]

The leaders of the German Adventist denomination told the General Conference they were wrong in their policies during World War I. They had realized their mistake and were once again in “harmony” with the teachings and doctrines of the Adventist denomination. But they believed their members had a right to choose their own path. What this meant was the German leaders believed that Adventists should remain in non-combatant roles, but they believed their  members could decided on their own whether or not to be combatant. This statement would cause problems in the future.

There was still the breach between the Seventh-day Adventists and the Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement after this meeting, which needed to be healed. L.R. Conradi, the president of the European Division, tried to justify the actions of the German Adventist leaders by explaining that the General Conference had “given German Adventists tacit approval.”[17] This tacit approval was to allow German Adventists to work on the Sabbath and bear arms. This explanation only made matters worse between the Adventists and the Reformers. Soon after World War I, the General Conference sent a delegation led by A.G. Daniells to try and heal the growing breach between the Adventists and the Reformers. A.G. Daniells stated that the “German [Adventist] leaders of the church have been wrong, but he also criticized the Reformers for setting up a separate organization and using misleading tactics to promote their views.”[18] In the end, the Reformers were disfellowedshiped from the Seventh-day Adventist Church.[19] The Reformers decided to create their own church where they “refused all military service and insisted on a rigid Sabbath observance”[20] and they would “continue with original teachings and practices of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.”[21] The Reformers no longer believed it was acceptable to be non-combatant during times of war. They believed the Seventh-day Adventists were no longer following the original teachings of the Church. In Gotha, Germany, July 14-20, 1925, “the SDA Reform Movement was first organized, officially, as a General Conference, when the ‘Principles of Faith and Church Order’ were drawn up and the name ‘Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement’ was adopted.” [22]

Support for Hitler
In the Adventist town of Friedensau, Germany 99.9% voted for the Nazi parliamentary state. Even though the Adventists wanted a strong Fuhrer and supported Hitler, that support varied. The reason was because of Hitler’s contradictions about religious liberty. The departmental secretary of the South German Union Conference, M. Busch, was in support of Hitler and “approvingly quoted Hitler’s statement in Mein Kampf  that ‘for the political Fuhrer all religious teachings and arrangements are untouchable.’”[23] The Adventists believed that Hitler was for religious freedom, while the Nazi Party was against it. “Still, point 24 of the Nazi party program stated that the Party supported positive Christianity, without tying itself to any particular confession.”[24] This was a debatable problem among Christian groups because no one knew what “positive” Christianity was. This problem was never clarified and the contradiction remained. When Hitler became dictator of Germany the discussion on the contradiction ended and very soon Christian groups would know what Hitler meant by “positive” Christianity.

On November 26, 1933, the Nazi state banned the small denominational churches. Among those prohibited were the Seventh-day Adventists. The Seventh-day Adventists decided to seek legal advice on what to do about the ban and within two weeks, the ban was lifted on the Adventist denomination.[25] After this, it was decided within the denomination that “positive” Christianity meant support for the Nazi state. To show their support for the Nazi state, the Adventists sent a letter to the “Nazi Ministry of Interior an official memorandum on Adventist teachings, church organizations, social activities and attitude to the government.”[26] The Adventists also informed the Interior that there church “members hold ‘German attitudes.’”[27] Pointing out that the government’s suspicion and concern should be to a “rival schismatic group, the Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement, whose attitudes, the Adventists insisted, were far from ‘German.’”[28] It seems that the Adventists were more concerned with holding German attitudes then holding Adventists attitudes.

It was because of this letter that the Nazi government noticed the Reform Adventist denomination. In trying to distance themselves from the Reformers, the Adventists led the Nazi government to them. The government investigated the Reformers and decided that they held different views from the acceptable Seventh-day Adventist denomination.[29] The Reformers were then banned on April 29, 1936.[30] The Seventh-day Adventists believe in religious liberty, but instead of voicing their outrage over the persecution of the Reformers and the Jews, the Adventist leaders decided to take action against these two groups. The Adventist leaders “issued directives to prevent the Reformers from joining the Adventist Church.”[31]  And they expelled Adventists who had a Jewish background from the Church.[32] The Adventists were unwilling to even protect their own members if they thought the Nazi government would disapprove. The state was able to control the Church because there was no religious liberty. This is not to say that individual Adventists did not help Jews or other undesirables. The Adventists were notable,

for the private and individual help they gave to Jews, for not only were Jewish converts cared for and hidden, as they were in some other sectarian and church circles, but help was also given to unbaptised Jews with whom Adventists happened to come in contact.[33]

In 1935, the privileges enjoyed by Adventists, such as keeping the Sabbath, selling religious literature, money transfers that were necessary for missionary work, and certain publications were forbidden.[34] This made the German Adventists reconsider their position on religious liberty of keeping church and state separated. They knew Nazi Germany was receiving a bad public image abroad because of its treatment of small denominational churches whose home base was in the United States. If the smaller denominations were willing to help improve the Nazi image abroad, the Nazi government was willing to allow those denominations some leniency. This was the starting point of the German Seventh-day Adventist denomination sacrificing integrity and basic denominational principles. The denomination “worked with German authorities to cultivate a better image for Nazi Germany in America in order to get better treatment at home.”[35] This was accomplished through the Adventist welfare program.

The Seventh-day Adventist welfare system was considered the best in Germany. Their organization in welfare made the Adventists stand out. Through their welfare system, the Adventist Church was able to show their “Christian principles and [their] patriotic loyalty to the state.”[36]  The Nazi government was satisfied with the work the Adventists were doing but not with the language. Instead of using “Christian” it was renamed “heroic.”[37] The Adventists welfare program was incorporated into the state’s National Socialist People’s Welfare Department. The incorporation went against their belief that church and state are to remain separate. The German Adventists welcomed the incorporation of their welfare program. They believed they could accomplish greater things and help more people. But with the incorporation, the Adventists had to obey the state’s laws, which were, no Jews, anti-socials or undesirables were to be given welfare.[38] The Adventists - on their own - added that no Seventh-day Adventist Reform Movement members were to receive help.[39] The Adventists were not helping more people, in fact they were discriminating against the people who needed their help the most. Along with the welfare programs of the Adventist, the health reforms and racial hygiene became important.

The Adventists believed that along with their welfare program, their health ideals were leading the way for a new Germany. Adolf Minck, soon to be president of the German Adventist Church, said, “We are not unprepared for the new order. After all, we have helped prepare the way for it, and helped to bring it about.”[40] The problem with supporting the Nazi government in their health program was the government’s belief in the principles of Darwinism. The Adventists denominational stance was against Darwin’s principles. The German Adventists sacrificed this principle for the Nazi government. In order to gain favor with the Nazi government, the Adventists changed what was written in their publications and reformed their health message. The Adventists “frequently print[ed] negative comments about the Jews.”[41] They also tried to show that even though the Adventists teachings about the Sabbath seemed Jewish, they were not Jewish.[42] The Adventists also believed in the sterilization program. Direct statements and the reprinting of non-Adventist articles showed their support for sterilization.[43]

The mentally weak, schizophrenics, epileptics, blind, deaf, crippled, alcoholics, drug addicts – all were to be sterilized. ‘This law,’ an article in the Seventh-day Adventist paper Jugend-Leitstern said, was ‘a great advance in the uplifting of our people. [44]

The position of the German Adventists changed from “caritas, the caring for the less fortunate and weak, to elimination of the weak, as the work of God. Their strong right arm had led German Adventists to a volkisch position.”[45] The Adventists had built a “well organized, efficient welfare system that seemed particularly well suited to work with state authorities.”[46] This system allowed Hulda Jost to be recognized by the Nazi regime.

Hulda Jost was the director of Adventist welfare and the leader of the Adventist Nurses Association. The Adventist Nurses Association operated several nursing homes and provided staff for numerous hospitals within Germany.[47] In this position, she was able to establish contacts within the Nazi government and outside Europe. She was also a big supporter of Hitler and his regime. Because of her contacts, she was able to help the Adventist denomination survive during the early years. This also made her the best candidate to travel to the United States and speak on behalf of the Nazi government.

Hulda Jost’s trip to the United States was planned for 1936 because the General Conference quadrennial session was going to be held in San Francisco. An invitation was sent to Hulda Jost from the Adventist Headquarters in Washington, D.C. Between the Adventist Headquarters and the German Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, Jost’s itinerary for her trip was planned. Jost arrived several months earlier to travel throughout the United States to speak on the German welfare services.[48]

Once in the United States Jost met with the General Conference vice president J.L. McElhany and her interpreter Louise C. Kleuser. Jost also had a meeting at German Embassy where she was told to avoid political controversy by speaking only on the achievements in the social service sector.[49] Jost spoke on the achievements of Germany under Hitler’s control to Adventist and other various organizations. It was not until April, that problems arose over Jost’s lectures. The problems started over a meeting with a pro-Nazi organization called Friends of the New Germany, which the German consul had set-up. The Chicago Daily News ran a story about Jost under the headline “Hitler Doesn’t want War, says Woman Leader.”[50] In the article she is quoted as having said that Hitler did not want war and the Germans were rearming because they feared Russia. When asked about the Jews, Jost said, “Hitler has merely wanted to take leadership away from the Jews but he doesn’t want to hurt them.” [51] This was the beginning of the General Conference problems with Jost.

The problems increased while in Denver, for Jost had alienated many of her listeners at a lecture by speaking so much about Hitler and the Jewish question.[52]  It seemed to the Adventist leaders that Jost was giving propaganda speeches about Hitler and his regime. She was no longer focusing on the Adventists or the welfare system in Germany. While still in Denver, Jost was pulled aside and asked by the Boulder sanitarium administrator to keep her lecture to the gospel because they did not want to hear any Hitler propaganda.[53] After her lectures in Denver, the General Conference decided it would be a good idea to keep a close rein on Jost. They gave warnings to each person Jost was to contact for her lectures. Even though the General Conference felt that Jost had become a liability towards the end of her lectures in the United States, the purpose of her mission had been accomplished. That mission was to “correct the distorted image of Germany.”[54]

Jost and the German Adventist leaders believed they had done their duty in the United States and hoped the Nazi government would be more lenient towards the Adventist denomination. But while they were in the United States, the German government passed a new decree requiring all school children to attend school on Saturday and the Adventist children were no longer allowed to study their bibles in class[55] There were also soldiers who were having difficulties in keeping the Sabbath.[56] Jost wrote a letter complaining to the high officials she knew about this new decree. She stated how the Adventists had been supporting the Nazi government and the work she was doing in the United States to improve their image. Joseph Goebbels even wrote a letter of his own to the Reich Church Ministry, but the decree was not revoked.[57] This was one case where Hulda’s connections and the trip to the United States did not help the Adventists. Yet there are other cases that show that having a powerful ally was useful.

One such case was about the investigation, by the Gestapo, of nurses belonging to the Adventist nurses association who had been dismissed because they were considered politically unreliable.[58] Jost became upset over their dismissal and did not believe the Gestapo’s report was correct, so she asked her friends in the Propaganda Ministry to look into it. The Propaganda Ministry’s report found the nurses to be “politically cleared.” Another example of Jost’s connections occurred in 1937, when a friend in the Church Ministry - who had a connection with the Gestapo - warned her about plans to dissolve the Adventist denomination.[59] With the help of her friends, Jost was able to contact higher officials in the Gestapo and stop the effort to dissolve the Adventist denomination.[60]

In March 1938, Hulda Jost passed away. Jost believed she helped the Adventist denomination survive the early years of Hitler’s regime. Jost knew she was lying while in the United States, when she said that the “Nazi authorities respected liberty of conscience as a matter of principle, and that [her] church enjoyed complete religious freedom.”[61] But she believed all her efforts and compromises to the Nazi regime would make her denomination free from the harassment of the Gestapo. The Adventist denomination was no longer separate from the state, because of Jost’s connections and actions. The Adventists believe in  the separation between church and state, but Jost went against this principle. Even with all of the compromises made in the early years, the Adventists had no security from the Nazi government. They sacrificed a main principle, separation of church and state, for nothing. Without security from the Nazi regime, the Adventists continued to make compromises with the regime.

World War II
The Second World War began when Hitler invaded Poland on September 1, 1939.  The previous year the Adventists began to remove “Jewish words” from their denomination. The word Sabbath School was no longer allowed and was replaced by the word Bible School.[62] Another word no longer allowed was the word Sabbath; this was changed within the denomination to Rest Day.[63]  With the outbreak of WWII, the government issued an ordinance preventing pastors from taking an offering in church or house-to-house.[64] There was a loophole to this ordinance, which said pastors were allowed to “levy fees on their members.”[65] This allowed small denominational pastors and churches to survive during the beginning of the war.

The Adventists in Germany continued to believe in Hitler and his regime. The publications in the late 1930s were about how Hitler was strengthening Germany and taking back the lands that had once belonged to Germany. They believed that God, himself, was leading this war and the readers of the Adventist journals could take comfort in that.[66] The East German Union president, Michael Budnick, informed the other conference presidents that Adolf Minck had been taken in by the Gestapo and informed that it was unacceptable conduct not to work on the Sabbath.[67]

The Church leaders believed that in order for the Adventist denomination to survive they needed to give instructions on April 30, 1940 to their pastors in a circular stating that “‘in total war there can only be total commitment and sacrifice.’”[68]  The problem with total war was the Church leaders did not want another split in the denomination that had occurred during WWI. In order to prevent this, the circular also told the pastors to instruct their members of the duties owed according to the Scriptures.[69] One of the Adventists’ fundamental beliefs is that the Holy Scriptures is the word of God.  The document stated that on Biblical grounds the church members should submit themselves to armed forces, because “God had commanded: ‘Submit yourselves, for the Lord’s sake, to every authority,”[70] which was quoted from 2 Peter. Along with 2 Peter, the German Adventists used Romans 13 to justify their continued support for Hitler and his regime. Romans 13 deals with the issue of submitting oneself to government authorities. The president of the East German Conference, W. Mueller, has been quoted as saying:

Under no circumstances did any Adventist have the right to resist the government, even if the government prevented him from exercising his faith. Resistance would be unfortunate because it would mark Adventists as opponents of the new state, a situation that should be prevented.[71]

This shows that German leaders did not want to resist the Nazi government. They did not want to be seen as opponents to the Nazi government. It was important to the leaders not to cause trouble in the Nazi regime. Even if the Nazi polices went against the denominational beliefs. The German Adventists leaders ignored or forgot the fact that they were supposed to submit first to God and His authority before submitting to a worldly authority.

This circular seemed to have worked, for in 1940 the government sent out a report naming the religious sects that would be allowed to continue to work in peace because they had limited themselves to religious teachings. The Seventh-day Adventists were one of the sects named.[72] Still this did not make the Adventists feel safe and they continued to compromise with the Nazi regime.

In 1941, the German government once again banned the Seventh-day Adventist denomination, but only in certain districts in the east.[73] These districts were Silesia, Danzig, and Lower Silesia. This caused some alarm within the Adventist communities, but there was nothing to be done to rescind the ban. In order to still have meetings, the Adventists met privately in members homes.[74] The S.D. noted that the Adventists in these districts were ignoring the ban, but little action was taken against the Adventists.[75]

The German Adventists continued to support Hitler and his regime until the end of World War II. The Adventists served loyally in the armed services, but most served in combatant positions and rose within the ranks.[76] This went against the denomination belief that if Adventists participate in war it must be in a non-combatant position. The Church leaders claimed, “the pastors and members of our Church stand loyally by their Volk and fatherland as well at its leadership, ready to sacrifice life and possessions.”[77] They were willing to sacrifice their life and possessions for the fatherland, but they were unwilling to do the same for their religious beliefs. The racial policies of the Nazi regime went against what Adventists believe, but the Adventists did not voice their concern. They also did not voice their objections about not having religious liberty in Nazi Germany. The German Adventists may have served their fatherland loyally, but they did not serve the Seventh-day Adventist denomination loyally.

After the War
The German Adventists continued to believe they had done the correct thing by compromising with the Nazi government. The survival of the church was what was important to the German Adventist leaders, and in order to survive they needed to compromise. Only in May 1948, did the General Conference take a closer look at the German Adventists’ actions during the Nazi regime. The reason why the General Conference took interest was because of a letter written by Major J.C. Thompson, chief of the Religious Affairs Section of the American Military Government in Berlin.[78] The letter wanted to know why the Adventists had not removed all the Nazis from their leadership positions within the denomination.[79] It also compared the Adventists to the Catholics, saying that the Catholics did not have to remove many people because of their strong opposition during the Nazi regime. There was no opposition from the Seventh-day Adventists.

The German Adventist leaders were upset with the General Conference for ordering members to step down from their positions because they had joined a Nazi organization. In order to survive in Nazi Germany, they argued, people had to join Nazi organizations. The German leaders believed the General Conference had no right to make judgments about them because of their actions during the Nazi regime. They were especially upset because the General Conference had “adopted and enforced a policy that prevented publication of any commentaries about Nazism or even fascism,”[80] in order to assist the German Adventists. The German Adventists did not like the fact they were being blamed when the General Conference was assisting them in their survival.

The General Conference had become alarmed in 1939, when they estimated that 10 percent of the German Adventists were working on the Sabbath.[81] The Sabbath is one thing that defines the Seventh-day Adventist church. With the start of World War II there was nothing the General Conference or the German Adventists could do. The German Adventists had sent out a circular telling its members to submit to the authority of the government. While this did not meet the demands of the Nazi government, it was used as evidence in the General Conference case against the German Adventists.[82]

There were several issues the General Conference had with the actions of the German Adventist leaders. Membership in a Nazi organization was of concern but not the greatest concern. The greatest concern of the General Conference was that “the denomination had been misled in its attempt to accommodate the demands of the Nazi state.”[83] The erosion of the Sabbath keeping in Germany led the General Conference to pass a resolution in 1946 on “Faithfulness and Sabbath-keeping.”[84] The German Adventists were still unwilling to admit they had been wrong. They still believed what they did was good, because it allowed for the survival of the denomination. The German leaders did not believe they had compromised any biblical principles.[85] The president of the German Adventist Church, Adolf Minck, wrote to the General Conference president, J.L. McElhany, stating, they had obeyed God’s law and the Ten Commandants. He also said that “‘they might have lived out the one and the other commandment a little different’ than in times of peace. ‘But holy did they remain to us.’”[86] This kind of reasoning of the German Adventist leaders made it hard for the General Conference to show that what they did was wrong. The German Adventist leaders interpreted the Scriptures to suit their situation. They believed that just because they were working on the Sabbath did not mean they had not kept it holy. They believed that “Scripture and Jesus taught clearly that the application of the law, rather then being absolute, was dependent on the circumstances.”[87] Their circumstance was either to work on the Sabbath or go to prison. This was not a viable choice for the German Adventist leaders. The German Adventist leaders never admitted that they made any mistakes, it was against their National pride and their continued rationalization of their actions during the Nazi regime.[88]

In conclusion, the German Adventists connected the Adventist denomination to the German state, which went against their belief of separation of church and state. They did this by allowing the Nazi government to take over the Adventists welfare program and dictating the policy. The Adventists were suppose to help those in need, instead they discriminated against those groups of people who needed their help the most. They refused to help the Jews, undesirables, and the Reformers because it would have cause trouble with the Nazi regime. The Adventists defended the Nazi regime and lied about the regime having religious liberty. Instead of speaking out against the Nazi regime and its treatment of the Jews, the Adventists remained silent. They remained silent to protect themselves. The Adventists also worked and sent their children to school on the Sabbath. Keeping the Sabbath day holy is one of the beliefs that make the Adventists different. This is one of the fundamental principle of the Seventh-day Adventists and when times got tough, they willing sacrifice this principle. The German Adventists willingly became combatants during WWII. The Adventist denomination understands that governments have a right to draft people during times of war, but the Adventists have always refused combatant roles. The German Adventists went against this policy and willingly accepted combatant roles. The Reform Adventists were not willing to sacrifice this principle and were sent to concentration camps or executed. In order to survive, the German Adventists sacrificed the standards and principles, which made them Adventists. The German Adventist leaders said they had to make the compromises in order to save the church. It is the standards, principles, beliefs, and integrity that make up the Adventist Church. By sacrificing the standards, principles, beliefs, and integrity of the Church did not save the Church, it weakened the Church. It showed how far the German Adventists were willing to go against what they believed and taught in order to save themselves. I believe the German Adventists leaders made these sacrifices in order to save themselves, not the Church. If they had wanted to save the Adventist church, the German leaders would not have compromised its integrity or gone against the church’s beliefs. It is always easier to make compromises then maintain integrity.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Christine E. King, The Nazi State and the New Religions: Five Case Studies in Non- Conformity, (New York: Edwin Mellen Press, 1982), 92.
[2]  Seventh-day Adventists Believe... A Biblical Expostion of 27 Fundamental Doctrines, Ministerial Association General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, (Maryland: Review and Herald, 1988), 4.
[3]  Seventh-day Adventists Believe, 16.
[4] Seventh-day Adventists  Believe, 206.
[5] Seventh-day Adventists Believe, 278.
[6] “Our History,” http://www.adventist.org/history/ (24 February 2002).
[7] Richard W. Schwarz and Floyd Greenleaf, Light Bearers: A History of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, (Nampa: Pacific Press, 2000), 212-213.
[8] Schwarz,and Greenleaf, Light Bearers, 213.
[9] Schwarz,and Greenleaf, Light Bearers, 213.
[10] Schwarz,and Greenleaf, Light Bearers, 213.
[11] Seventh-Day Adventist Encyclopedia M-Z, ed. Don F. Neufeld, (Maryland: Review and Herald, 1996), 592.
[12] Schwarz,and Greenleaf, Light Bearers, 620.
[13] King, The Nazi State and the New Religions, 110.
[14] Cited from F.M. Wilcox, Seventh-day Adventists in Time of War, p. 58.  “Origin of the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement,” (6 February 2002).
[15] “Origin of the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement,” < http://www.sdarm.org/origin.htm >(6 February 2002).
[16] Erwin Sicher, “Seventh-day Adventist Publications and The Nazi Temptation,” Spectrum 8 (March 1977), 12.
[17] Schwarz,and Greenleaf, Light Bearers, 620.
[18]  Schwarz,and Greenleaf, Light Bearers, 620.
[19] Schwarz,and Greenleaf, Light Bearers, 620.
[20] King, The Nazi State and the New Religions, 110.
[21] “Origin of the Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement,” < http://www.sdarm.org/origin.htm > (6 February 2002).
[22] SDARM Good Way Series-Study 13- The SDA Reform Movement Origin (14 February 2002).
[23] Sicher, “Seventh-day Adventist Publications and The Nazi Temptation,” 14.
[24] Sicher, “Seventh-day Adventist Publications and The Nazi Temptation,” 14.
[25] King, The Nazi State and the New Religions,  96.
[26] Sicher, “Seventh-day Adventist Publications and The Nazi Temptation,” 15.
[27] King, The Nazi State and the New Religions, 96.
[28] King, The Nazi State and the New Religions, 96.
[29] King, The Nazi State and the New Religions, 110.
[30] Hans Fleschutz, ed., And Follow Their Faith!, (Denver: International Missionary Society ), 19.
[31] Roland Blaich, “Divided Loyalties: American and German Seventh-day Adventists and the Second World War,” Spectrum 30 (Winter 2002), 44.
[32] Zdravko Plantak, The Silent Church: Human Rights and Adventist Social Ethics, (New York: St. Martin’s Press, 1998), 20.
[33] King, The Nazi State and the New Religions, 101-2
[34]Roland Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad: The Case of Hulda Jost,” Journal of Church and State, vol. 35, number 4, Autumn 1993, (United States: J.M. Dawson Institute), 808.
[35] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad,” 807.
[36] King, The Nazi State and the New Religions, 105.
[37] King, The Nazi State and the New Religions, 105.
[38] King, The Nazi State and the New Religions, 105.
[39] King, The Nazi State and the New Religions, 105.
[40] Adolf Minck, “Reformation,” Jugend-Leitstern, (April 1933), quoted by: Roland Blaich, “Health Reform and Race Hygiene: Adventists and the Biomedical Vision of the Third Reich,” Chuch History, Vol. 65, (Pennsylvania: Science Press, 1996), 427.
[41] Sicher, “Seventh-day Adventist Publications and The Nazi Temptation,” 16.
[42] Sicher, “Seventh-day Adventist Publications and The Nazi Temptation,” 16.
[43] Sicher, “Seventh-day Adventist Publications and the Nazi Temptation,” 19.
[44] R. Sulzmann, “Erbkrank,” Gegenwarts-Frage, vol. 9, nr.1, 1934, p.8, quoted by: Sicher, “Seventh-day Adventist Publications and the Nazi Temptation,” 19.
[45] Blaich, “Health Reform and Race Hygiene,” 437.
[46] Blaich, “Health Reform and Race Hygiene,” 427.
[47] Blaich, “Health Reform and Race Hygiene,” 427.
[48] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad,” 809.
[49] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad,” 810.
[50] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad,” 811.
[51] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad,” 811.
[52] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad,” 811.
[53] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad,” 812.
[54] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad,” 820.
[55] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad,” 820.
[56] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad,” 820.
[57] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad ,”821.
[58] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad,” 823.
[59] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad,” 824.
[60] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad,” 824.
[61] Blaich, “Selling Nazi Germany Abroad,” 827.
[62] Jack M. Patt, “Living in a Time of Trouble: German Adventists Under Nazi Rule,” Spectrum 8 (March 1977), 4.
[63] Patt, “Living in a Time of Trouble,” 4.
[64] Patt, “Living in a Time of Trouble,” 7.
[65] Patt, “Living in a Time of Trouble,” 7.
[66] Blaich, “Divided Loyalties,” 44.
[67] Roland Blaich, “Religion under National Socialism: The Case of the German Adventist Church,” Central European History, vol. 26, number 3, (United States: Humanities Press, 1994), 270.
[68] Mr. Blaich does not say who this quote is from, but it seems to be from G.W. Schubert to the General Conference Committee, Feb. 7, 1937. Or it is from the Circular to the Conference Presidents of the East German Union, Mar. 27, 1940. Blaich, “Divided Loyalties,” 45.
[69] Blaich “Divided Loyalties,” 45.
[70] Blaich, “Divided Loyalties,” 45.
[71] “An unsere Gemeindeglieder in Deutschland,” Der Adventbote, vol. 39, nr. 17, August 15, 1933, pp. 1-4. quoted by: Sicher, “Seventh-day Adventist Publications and The Nazi Temptation,” 15.
[72] Patt, “Living in a Time of Trouble,” 7.
[73] Blaich, “Divided Loyalties,” 45.
[74] King, The Nazi State and the New Religions, 108.
[75] King, The Nazi State and the New Religions,108.
[76] Blaich, “Divided Loyalties,” 47.
[77] Blaich, “Divided Loyalties,” 47.
[78] Blaich, “Religion under National Socialism,” 225.
[79] Blaich, “Religion under National Socialism,” 225.
[80] Blaich, “Religion under National Socialism,” 266.
[81] Blaich, “Religion under National Socialism,” 270.
[82] Blaich, “Religion under National Socialism,” 271.
[83] Blaich, “Religion under National Socialism,” 274.
[84] Blaich, “Religion under National Socialism,” 274.
[85] Blaich, “Religion under National Socialism,” 275.
[86] Blaich, “Religion under National Socialism,” 275.
[87] Blaich, “Religion under National Socialism,” 275-6.
[88] Blaich, “Religion under National Socialism,” 280.

EVO I PREVODA GORNJEG TEKSTA:
http://religija.me/crkve/ASD_u_Njemackoj_tokom_drugog_svjetskog_rata.pdf

Pitanje za razmišljanje:
Kada su adventističke vođe bili spremniji i podložniji za kompromise: za vrijeme II svjetskog rata, ili danas? Kome će se prikloniti kad započne velika kriza ili Treći svjetski rat? Ono što je potpuno izvjesno je da danas imaju bolje "veze" i mnogo više novca tako da će se "spasenje" kupovati kao u holivudskim apokaliptičkim filmovima.

Adventists and Papacy Sign Pact“
Adventist Church Cannot be Treated as a Sect,” Warsaw, Poland ... [ANN Feb 15, 2000]

“The Seventh-day Adventist Church cannot be treated either as a ‘new religious movement,’ or as a sect,” declares a joint statement drawn by the Roman Catholic Church and the Adventist Church in Poland.

Recognizing each other’s autonomy and independence, the document was issued following 15 years of dialogue aimed at better understanding of the teachings and practice of the Catholic and the Adventist Churches, as well as improving relations without compromising each other’s identity.

The document cites the fact that “relations between Catholics and Adventists have not been best in the past.” The statement was signed by representatives of the Churches, including Pastor Wladyslaw Polok, president of the Adventist Church in Poland, and Archbishop Alfons Nossol, chairman of the Polish Episcopate’s Commission for Ecumenical Affairs.

“With regret we recognize cases when the different religious and civic circles have denied the ecclesiastical status of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, even refering to it as a ‘sect.’ Such an approach is unacceptable and, we believe, it is highly detrimental for the mutual relations,” the document states.

“This document affirms religious liberty. We are regarding it as an important development not only for our Church in Poland. Religious minorities are too often regarded as less than what they are,” said Pastor Polok.

The statement recognizes that though the Churches can refer to similarities, they also see difference between each other’s “doctrine, practice and church policies.” However, both sides affirm a need to cultivate respect for each other and learn to understand each other. The dialogue was “conducted on the basis of partnership, care to uphold a full identity of both sides, as well as their autonomy and independence, in the spirit of mutual respect and Christian love, and in recognition of the ideals of tolerance and religious freedom.”

“This is an important turn of events for our Church,” says Prof. Zachariasz Lyko, who for many years was responsible for the Polish Adventist Church’s public affairs. “This development is not a result of criticism, public attacks or confrontation, but Christian kindness toward each other and respect for dignity of a human person.”

“Many of us can recall how we have been labeled with different names. We have been misunderstood and often ridiculed. As for us, we wanted to sit down together and recognize that Christian love requires a different kind of relation in the society we are a part of. As Seventh-day Adventists we seek to take a positive approach to other faiths. We have stated this publicly and this document affirms our attiutude [sic],” he added.

The document does not deal with doctrinal and theological issues. During the years of meetings, both sides presented their theological views and doctrinal positions in the interest of better understanding between both confessions. “Our Church recognizes that such dialogue cannot be a dialogue of compromise, but one of cooperative spirit and common understanding,” Lyko explained. “We are doing nothing different except what the early pioneers of our Church supported and advocated. It is always better to engage in a respectful conversation than in a confrontation that often prevents achieving desired changes,” he said.

Lyko commented that “as a Church, our side was not interested in compromising any of our fundamental beliefs.”

“Over the years, however, as the exchange of information between us took place, we noted many confessional similarities but also differences. The Catholic side recognizes in the document the Christocentric character of our beliefs, and especially our belief in the Trinity, as well as ecclesiological identity of the Church, a status affirmed by an act of the Polish Parliament. On our part, we spoke of a need to change attitudes toward our denomination and recognized the openness of the Catholic Church, especially in recent times, toward the Bible,” Lyko explained.


How can the Adventist church identify the papacy as the beast if it is partners with them? The conference is not spreading the three angel's messages to the world, as they would rather follow the papacy over their duty to God.

The Ignored Prophet, Ellen White Speaks:

"The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure." Series B No. 2 54,55, or 1 SM 204, 205

"The sin of ancient Israel was in disregarding the expressed will of God and following their own way according to the leadings of unsanctified hearts. Modern Israel are fast following in their footsteps, and the displeasure of the Lord is as surely resting upon them." 5T 94

"If when the Lord reveals your errors you do not repent or make confession, His providence will bring you over the ground again and again. You will be left to make mistakes of a similar character, you will continue to lack wisdom, and will call sin righteousness. The multitude of deceptions that will prevail in these last days will encircle you, and you will change leaders, and not know that you have done so." RH 12/6/90

"We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird....I tell you the truth, Elder Butler, that unless there is a cleansing of the soul temple on the part of many who claim to believe and to preach the truth, God's judgments, long deferred, will come." Letter 51, 1886.

"We are not to spend our time in controversy with those who know the truth, and upon whom the light of truth has been shining, when they turn away their ear from the truth to turn to fables. I was told that men will employ every policy to make less prominent the differences between the faith of Seventh-day Adventists and those who observe the first day of the week. In this controversy the whole world will be engaged, and the time is short. This is no time to haul down our colors. A company was presented before me under the name of Seventh-day Adventists, who were advising that the banner or sign which makes us a distinctive people should not be held out so strikingly, for they claimed it was not the best policy in securing success to our institutions....I saw some reaching out their hands to remove the banner, and obscure its significance." 2SM 385

"Study the 9th chapter of Ezekiel. These words will be literally fulfilled; yet the time is passing and the people are sleep. They refuse to humble their souls and to be converted. Not a great while longer will the Lord bear with the people who have such great and important truths revealed to them, but who refuse to bring these truths into their individual experience. The time is short. God is calling; will you hear?" Letter 106, 1909

[Some Adventists believe the conference will repent eventually, so we should continue to support their apostasy until that happens. If the conference is to repent, then why does the Bible say in Ezekiel 9 there will be a slaughter of the leaders and laity where almost every Adventist will soon be killed by God's destroying angel after the close of probation? The slaughter is brought about because of the abominations of Israel or Adventists as noted in Ezekiel chapter eight. Mrs. White tells us the slaughter of Ezekiel chapter nine will be a literal slaughter of professed Adventists. Ezekiel sees the slaughter beginning with the leadership, and he frightfully watches the destruction and asks the destroying angel if all Israel or Adventists will be killed.]

"The world must not be introduced into the church, and married to the church, forming a bond of unity. Through this means the church will become indeed corrupt, and as stated in Revelation, 'a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.' Through association with the world our institutions will become unsubstantial, unreliable; because these worldly elements, introduced and placed in positions of trust, are looked up to as teachers to be respected in their educating, directing, and official position, and they are sure to be worked upon by the spirit and power of darkness; so that the demarcation becomes not distinguished between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not. In the balances of the sanctuary the Seventh-day Adventist church is to be weighed. She will be judged by the privileges and advantages that she has had. If her spiritual experience does not correspond to the advantages that Christ, at infinite cost, has bestowed on her, If the blessings conferred have not qualified her to do the work entrusted to her, on her will be pronounced the sentence: 'found wanting.' By the light bestowed, the opportunities given, will she be judged." 8T 247

1901 "It is working upon wrong principles that has brought the cause of God into its present embarrassment. The people have lost confidence in those who have the management of the work. Yet we hear that the voice of the Conference is the Voice of God. Every time I have heard this, I have thought that it was almost blasphemy....We have reached the time when the work cannot advance while wrong principles are cherished." Man. 37, 1901

ODGOVOR MIROLJUBA PETROVIĆA NA PITANJE JEDNOG ADVENTISTE

Bozidar Perisic je napisao:

Cujem da si bio adventist a sad nisi.ja sam gledao tvoja predavanja problematika i nauka o smrti i mislim da super pricas.u cemu se ti neslazes sa adventizmom?ako nije tajna..........

Miroljub Petrović:
Lose si cuo, nisam nikada bio adventista. Nekada sam cesce drzao predavanja u raznim protestanskim crkvama, pa su me razne crkve svojatale da sam "njihov". Danas me skoro niko od protestanata ne poziva da kod njih drzim predavanja jer su shvatili da ljude koje privuku u crkvu reklamirajuci moje predavanje ne mogu da zadrze, posto ljudi traze kontakt sa mnom, a ja im nikako ne sugerisem da ostanu u toj crkvi, i sto im se narocito ne svidja je to sto mnogi njihovi vernici napustaju svoje crkve nakon razgovora sa mnom.

Sto se tice konkretno adventizma, sa njim se ne slazem jer je liberalan kao i svi drugi protestanski pokreti, a to znaci da stvaranje dobrih ljudi nije glavni cilj i misija crkve, nego pokusaj okupljanja sto veceg broja ljudi u crkvu po svaku cenu, ukljucujuci i komromise sa grehom, koji postaju sve veci i veci. Posto se javljas iz Marusevca, a to je centar adventisticke skole i fakulteta u Hrvatskoj, onda odlicno znas kakav se nemoral dopusta u toj skoli (i fakultetu). Odlicno znas kako su mladi neozbiljni, kako ulaze u predbracne odnose, kakve neozbiljne razgovore vode, kakve viceve pricaju (o Bogu), a takvo je stanje jer su profesori i pastori takvi - liberalni, neozbiljni i zeljni da se nikome ne zamere da ne bi izgubili posao.

U adventistickoj crkvi je uvedena demokratija, glasanjem se donose odluke, bas kao i u svim neznabozackim sredinama, zene mogu da studiraju teologiju i da budu clanovi crkvenog odbora (kao i u drugim protestanskim crkvama), a svi pastori i vernici gledaju da sto pre dodju u gradove, da decu salju u najsekularnije skole, i onda ne treba da cudi da su deca pastora najnemoralnija u crkvi (uglavnom), i da daju los primer ostaloj deci i vernicima (takav je slucaj i u drugim protestanskim crkvama).

Takodje, adventisti insistiraju na nekim perifernim teoloskim pitanjima kao sto su dan od odmora, obred pranja nogu i obred vecere Gospodnje, i slicno, a ne na osnovnim stvarima, a to su jaka porodica, puno dece, osposobljenost za zdrav zivot u prirodi, zivot po Mojsijevom zakonu (koji je Isus licno dao Mojsiju) i slicno. U adventizmu se navodno drze 10 Bozjih zapovesti, a ne znaju da su tih 10 zapovesti ustvari jedan sazetak svih zapovesti koje je Bog dao preko Mojsija. Zato ne treba da cudi sto je kod adventista porodica slaba, sto su zene komandanti u kuci, sto imaju malo dece i sto su deca sekularna, sto ne zive u prirodi, i sto umiru od istih onih bolesti od kojih umiru i neznabosci (rak debelog creva, bolesti srca i krvnih sudova i slicno).

Evo, javili su mi pre neki dan iz Kalifornije da jedan od najpoznatijih adventistickih teologa, Dr Samuel Bakioki, umire od raka debelog creva. Znas ko umire od te vrste raka? Samo onaj koji krka i zdere, koji tamani meso i hedonise se. Ja sam video tog coveka i znam kako je debeo, i kako voli da se hedonise.

Ono sto je jos strasnije u celom slucaju, jeste da na adventisckoj Loma Linda bolnici (u Kaliforniji), koja je jedna od najvecih i najskupljih u Americi, adventisticki lekari lece rak hemoterapijom, zracenjem i na slicne nacine, a i druge bolesti tretiraju na potpuno sekularan i nezdrav nacin, sto znaci da su potpuno odbacili zdravstvene principe lecenja koji su dati u Bibliji. Secam se kada je jedan adventisticki pastor prisustvovao mom predavanju u Kaliforniji i zvao me da posetim jednog adventistickog pastora u Loma Linda bolnici koji je bolovao od raka. Cuo je kako su se neki ljudi izlecili preko mene od raka i hteo je da pomogne svom kolegi. Ja sam posao sa njim u posetu tom coveku (bio je mlad, oko 40 godina). Nije bilo sanse da mu se bilo sta objasni. Ma kakva Biblija i dokazi. Njemu su dolazili njegove "sestre" iz crkve, medicinske sestre, da mu daju otrov - hemoterapiju. Ja sam bio zgranut.

Ja mislim da se Dr Kelog, koji je osnovao Loma Linda bolnicu i koji se isticao lecenjem ljudi prirodnim metodama, okrece u grobu zbog onoga sto se radi na Loma Linda bolnici.

I da ne pricam dalje, jer bih mogao jos mnogo toga da kazem negativnog, a zelim da se bavim onim sto je pozitivno. Ja imam neke prijatelje koji su clanovi adventisticke crkve, i nekih drugih protestanskih crkava, i njima ne smeta to sta ja mislim. Oni se uglavnom slazu sa mnom, ali smatraju da ipak treba biti clan i deo neke crkve. Dakle, ti i ja mozemo da se ne slazemo oko nekih pitanja, ali ako postoji tendencija ka pozitivnom, onda mozemo da razgovaramo.

Nisam imao nameru da te uvredim, nego samo da ti odgovorim na pitanje. Ja volim sve protestante, ali ne volim njihov koncept zivota.
Izmenjeno do strane Miroljub Petrovic na 30-01-2009 08:14

"VELIKI TUMAČ" OTKRIVENJA JOVANOVOG I TEŠKI NEMORAL
Citat sa jednog foruma:

Isto su ovako napadali Lukića kad je još 80-tih godina (oh, još pošlog tisućljeća) podigao glas protiv nemorala u crkvi! Odmah su Lukića pokušali diksreditirati i ušutkati jer on "mrzi žene"!... A isti taj koji je optuživao i klevetao Lukića - isti taj Ranko Stefanović je malo iza toga počinio strašne stvari, preljuba sa "sestrom" u crkvi, napravio joj dijete i onda je SILIO da izvrši abortus... pa je cura doživjela slom (živaca) i pobjegla u Njemačku. A i mama joj je član crkve...(to je bila velika afera u crkvi i Stefanović ipak nije isključen iz crkve...?!??? jer ga štitio brat iz Generalne i ekipa iz zagrebačke centrale. To je moral onih koji su Lukića "ukoravali" za to što se drznuo UKORITI "svete" i "bezgrešne" adventističke propovjednike!! ....

Ranko Stefanović je ......., javno se hvali da je prijatelj sa Jezuitima i dobro živi od te svoje liberalne teologije. On je slika današnjeg adventizma.

Oni koji posjećuju moj sajt mogli su viđeti seriju predavanja prof. Stefanovića, ali samo do večeras jer će biti odmah obrisana. Zaista užas ko nam sve drži slovo....
Prije izvjesnog vremena slično sam se oslobodio VHS kaseta jednog "vječitog omladinca", koji je, valjda po uzoru na druga Tita, mnogo volio omladinu a naročito omladinke. Očigledno, ti tipovi su toliko pečenog djon obraza da mogu noću da se kurvaju a sjutradan da drže seminar "Osnovne istine Biblije" kao da se ništa nije dogodilo, što svjedoči na koji način su ih shvatili i kako su školovani na "teološkim" fakultetima. Jedina stvar koja im je bitna u svemu tome je da izvuku svoje dupe, baš kao i njemačkim adventističkim vođama u vrijeme Hitlerovog režima.

U svijetlu do sada izloženih informacija, evo jedne vrlo zanimljive veze.
Citat je preuzet sa beogradskog HAC foruma na temu Vicarius Filii Dei (spor oko papske tijare):

A sto se tice Ranka Stefanovica...Pa nije mi jasno zasto se oko njega toliko zabunili?? Ranko je secundaran izvor. On je informacije o tijari dobio uglavnom od Bakiokija. Administratoru, eto ti pa ti proveri jesam li u pravu ili ne?? Bakioki je drzao jedno predavanje na ovu temu, veoma dobru i kvalitetnu, ja je imam kod kuce. Mnostvo informacija se nalazi tamo. Uvodnu rec je dao Jean Polin i upravo Ranko Stefanovic.

http://www.hacbg.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=109&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75

A evo nešto malo i o odnosu prema Elen Vajt sa istog foruma (ista tema) od osobe pod nadimkom "bob rock" (adventista, vjerovatno neki teolog, imao sam kraću polemiku s njim na forumu "Svjetlost istine"):

Citat od EGW! Hajde da te malo obrazujem - ona nije zvanicno merilo adventisticke doktrine. Ona mozda moze da bude merilo neinformisanim pojedincima, ali nije Adventistickoj crkvi.

Inače, ovom komentaru prethode citati EGW koje je naveo pravoslavac ZvonkoM (izgleda da je u pitanju teolog SPC) gdje ona govori kako je papa promijenio Dan od odmora (Šabat). Dakle, Bakioki i Stefanović su mjerilo "istine" kad treba odbraniti papu, dok Elen Vajt služi za crkvenu razonodu i "neinformisane pojedince."

Pastor Joe I. Grider, Bellfort Seventh-day Adventist Church, Hjuston, Teksas
Obratite pažnju na odeždu i priču. Naravno, i ASD pastori su postali "očevi."

Prevod citata EGW iz posta od 26. avgusta 2010:

„Neprijatelj duša nastoji da unese pretpostavku da se velika reformacija dogodila među adventistima sedmog dana, i da bi se ova reformacija sastojala u odbacivanju doktrina koje stoje kao stubovi naše vjere, i angažovanjem u procesu reorganizacije. Kad bi se ova reformacija desila, kakav bi bio ishod? Načela vjere koja je Bog u svojoj mudrosti dao crkvi ostatka bila bi odbačena. Naša religija bi se promijenila. Temeljna načela koja su nosila djelo u proteklih pedeset godina smatrala bi se zabludom. Nova organizacija bi se uspostavila. Pisale bi se knjige o novom poretku. Uveo bi se sistem intelektualne filozofije. Osnivači ovog sistema ušli bi u gradove i učinili čudesno djelo. Šabat bi se naravno olako cijenio, a takođe i Bog koji ga je stvorio. Ničemu se ne bi dopustilo da stane na put ovog novog pokreta. Vođe bi učili da je vrlina bolja od poroka, ali kad se Bog ukloni, oni bi položili svoju zavisnost na ljudsku silu, što je, bez Boga, bezvrijedno. Njihov temelj bio bi izgrađen na pijesku, i oluja iskušenja bi oduvala tu strukturu.“ Series B No. 2 54,55, or 1 SM 204, 205

„Grijeh drevnog Izraela bio je zanemarivanje izričite volje Božje i slijeđenje svog vlastitog puta prema usmjerenjima neposvećenog srca. Savremeni Izrael ubrzano slijedi njihove tragove, i nezadovoljstvo Gospodnje isto tako sigurno počiva na njima.“ 5T 94

„Ako se kad Gospod otkrije vaše zablude ne pokajate ili načinite priznanje, Njegovo proviđenje će vas uvijek iznova dovoditi na isto tle. Daće vam se da činite greške sličnog karaktera, nastavićete u nedostatku mudrosti, i zvaćete grijeh pravednošću. Mnoštvo obmana koje će prevlađivati u poslednjim danima će vas okružiti, i vi ćete promijeniti vođu ne znajući da ste to učinili.“ RH 12/6/90

„Mi smo u opasnosti da postanemo sestra palog Vavilona, dopuštajući da naše crkve postanu iskvarene, i ispunjene svakim gadnim duhom, i kavez za svaku nečistu i mrsku pticu... Kazaću vam istinu, starješino Batler, da ukoliko ne bude čišćenja hrama duše od strane mnogih koji tvrde da vjeruju i propovijedaju istinu, Božji sudovi, dugo zadržavani, će doći.“ Letter 51, 1886.

„Mi ne treba da trošimo vrijeme u sukobu sa onima koji znaju istinu, i na kojima je svjetlost istine sjala, kad se okrenu svoje uši od istine i obrate se bajkama. Rečeno mi je da će ljudi upotrijebiti svaku politiku da načine manje upadljivim razlike između vjere Adventista sedmog dana i onih koji drže prvi dan u sedmici. U ovaj sukob uključiće se cijeli svijet, a vrijeme je kratko. Nije vrijeme da spuštamo svoje zastave. Predstavljeno mi je društvo adventista sedmog dana, koji savjetuju da se zastava ili znak koji nas čini osobenim narodom ne treba tako upadljivo isticati, jer oni su tvrdili da to nije najbolja politika u osiguravanju uspjeha naših institucija... [Očito se radi o ljudima koji od religije prave biznis.] Vidjela sam neke kao pružaju ruke da uklone zastavu, i zasjene njen značaj.“ 2SM 385

„Proučavajte 9-u glavu Jezekilja. Ove riječi doslovno će se ispuniti; ipak vrijeme prolazi a narod spava. Oni odbijaju da ponize svoje duše i da se obrate. Gospod još neće dugo imati strpljenja sa narodom koji ima tako velike i važne istine koje su im otkrivene, ali koji odbijaju da unesu ove istine u svoje indivudualno iskustvo. Vrijeme je kratko. Bog poziva; hoćete li slušati“ Letter 106, 1909
[Mnogi vjeruju da će se vođstvo Adventističke crkve na kraju ipak pokajati i da ih treba ipak podržavati, ali primjena riječi Elen Vajt je očigledna. Na kraju vremena probe desiće se pogubljenje vođa i naroda savremenog Izraela, toliko masovno da je prorok pitao anđela hoće li iko ostati.]

„Svijet se ne smije uvoditi u crkvu, i vjenčati sa crkvom, obrazujući tako sponu jedinstva. Kroz ovo sredstvo crkva će postati zaista pokvarena, i kako je konstatovano u Otkrivenju, ‘kavez svake nečiste i mrske ptice.’ Kroz udruživanje sa svijetom naše institucije će postati nevažne, nepouzdane; zato što će se na ove svjetovne elemente, uvedene i postavljene na položajima od povjerenja, gledati kao na učitelje koji se moraju poštovati u njihovom obrazovanju, usmjeravanju i zvaničnom položaju, dok će na njih izvjesno djelovati duh sile tame; tako da razgraničenje postane nejasno između onoga koji služi Bogu i koji ne služi. Crkva Adventista sedmog dana mora biti izmjerena na mjerilima svetinje. Njoj će se suditi po privilegijama i prednostima koje je imala. Ako njeno duhovno iskustvo ne bude odgovaralo preimućstvima koje je Hristos, po beskonačnoj cijeni, izlio na nju, ako je darivani blagoslovi ne kvalifikuju da obavi zadatak koji joj je povjeren, na njoj će biti objavljena kazna: ‘našla si se laka.’ Sudiće joj se po svjetlosti i prilikama koje su joj date.“ 8T 247, 1901

„Rad na pogrešnim principima je ono što je dovelo Božje djelo u sadašnju pometnju. Ljudi su izgubili poverenje u one koji vode djelo. Ipak čujemo da je glas Generalne Konferencije glas Božji. Svaki put kad sam čula ovo, pomislila bih da je to skoro bogohuljenje... Došli smo u vrijeme kad djelo ne može napredovati dok se  njeguju pogrešna načela.“ Man. 37, 1901

Admin (citat):VAŽNA NAPOMENA: Kako uvijek ima onih koji će ovaj video proglasiti "montiranim" i sl, u pitanju je TV snimak koji je napravila američka televizija (St. Louis television) koja je kao profesionalni medij ispratila taj dogadjaj.

Iskreno, smatram da je čitava priča montirana. Način kako se iznosi je više nego smešan. Eto, ubedi mene u svoju priču, ako možeš.

Ja sam adventista koji ne smatram vođe savršenima, kao što nisam ni ja savršen, kao što nisi ni ti savršen. Ali, "dokaze" koje si ti izneo doslovno nisu nikakvi dokazi. Nikakvi. Ako imaš neke dokaze, ja bih voleo o njima. Posebno nije nikakav dokaz tvoj stav u vezi sa Rankom. Nisi ti ništa novo otkrio, ti si to samo preuzeo sa jednog anti-adventističkog sajta, čija propaganda i iznošenje laži i neistina često me fascinira. Da li trebam da navedem izvor? Vidiš, mene jako zanimaju izvori. Za tebe je pravoslavni izvor bolji od bilo kog drugog zvaničnog izvora naše Crkve, recimo, pa reci mi - na osnovu čega?

Sad, objasni mi na osnovu čega je Egw autoritet u adventističkoj Crkvi? To što su adventisti indoktrinirani godinama da je ona jedini autoritet i kriterijum? Smešno.

ZvonkoM nije nikakav teolog u SPC, a izvore koje koristiš sa njegovog sajta su u potpunosti osmišljeni sa jednim jedinim ciljem, ali time se praktično NIŠTA ne dokazuje. Još uvek.

Eto, ubedi mene u svoju priču, ako možeš.

Ne vjerujem da mogu.

Za tebe je pravoslavni izvor bolji od bilo kog drugog zvaničnog izvora naše Crkve, recimo, pa reci mi - na osnovu čega?

Izvor nije nijedan pravoslavni sajt, a i da jeste bitno je da li je to istina ili ne. Ti dakle tvrdiš da od toga nije bilo ništa? Raspitaj se malo ako je kojim slučajem ostalo još poštenih starijih ljudi u crkvi.

Sad, objasni mi na osnovu čega je Egw autoritet u adventističkoj Crkvi?

U današnjoj ASD ni Bog nije autoritet pa shodno tome ne može biti ni Njegov prorok.

ZvonkoM nije nikakav teolog u SPC, a izvore koje koristiš sa njegovog sajta su u potpunosti osmišljeni sa jednim jedinim ciljem, ali time se praktično NIŠTA ne dokazuje. Još uvek.

Ja uopšte ne znam da ZvonkoM ima neki svoj sajt, ali znam da je osoba pod istim imenom veoma aktivna na pravoslavnom forumu Verujem i očito jedan od onih koji vode glavnu riječ, a teško da se radi o slučajnosti, zar ne? A ti kao teolog ASD crkve si se dobro potrudio pred njim da kompromituješ EGW (kao i jezuitski teolog Bakioki u svojoj "knjizi") u odbrani "svetog oca."

Nego da li bi bio ljubazan da mi kažeš ko je znameniti Bob Rock? Za tebe znam ko si.

Admin (citat):
Ne vjerujem da mogu.

A zašto?? Imaš moju reč da ću sve što izneseš časno i pošteno, uvažiti, razmotriti, etc. Ja nisam čovek koji sam lagao ni u svetu, a ne sad kao hrišćanin. Nikad. Tako da, ako imaš neku istinu, svakako me možeš uveriti, jer mene istina zanima više nego što možeš da pretpostaviš, i NIKADA se nije desilo da mi Bog objavi istinu i ja da je NE prihvatim. Na to možeš da zaboraviš, nemoj da živiš u iluziji da si samo ti tako pošten i objektivan u odnosu na istinu.

Izvor nije nijedan pravoslavni sajt, a i da jeste bitno je da li je to istina ili ne.

Ok, brate. Znači, kada se citiraju anti-adventistički sajtovi, onda "nije bitno" ko šta kaže, a kada se citiraju adventistički autori, onda su oni kurvari, lažovi, masoni, nastavi niz? Smešno. I jadno. Daj mi neki objektivni kriterijum na osnovu koga možemo da nastavimo u ovom pravcu, jer osim intelektualnog nepoštenja, ja ne vidim neki siguran objektivni kriterijum koji bi nam mogao biti od koristi. Od kada to nije bitno šta pravoslavni sajtovi kažu, da ne spominjem ko zna kakvu sve mračnu prošlost (pa i sadašnjost) mnogih pravoslavnih vernika, episkopa, pa i vladika???

Ti dakle tvrdiš da od toga nije bilo ništa?

Nisam to rekao. Samo ne vidim koja je poenta navodno razotkrivanje nečijih greha? Da li znaš da se sotona bavi time?? Svakodnevno on svakom Božjem detetu prigovara pred anđelima i Bogom - vidi ga kakav je. On tvoje dete? Pogledaj ga šta radi Zar misliš da je pričanje o osobama koje lično ne poznaješ, nego se sve bazira na "rekla-kazala" svedočanstvima nije direktno kršenje zapovesti o lažnom svedočenju protiv njih? Razmisli o ovome, prijatelju. Nemam ništa protiv tebe, da me pogrešno ne shvatiš, samo smatram da i ja mogu da kažem svoje mišljenje o ovoj temi (dok mogu).

Raspitaj se malo ako je kojim slučajem ostalo još poštenih starijih ljudi u crkvi.

Šta da se raspitam? Pa da se blamiram? Neka hvala. Ja ne mogu i ne želim suditi drugima, da zalazim u njihove privatne živote, postelje, what else. Ako ti to radiš, ja neću. Ako je tebi to životni cilj i misija, meni svakako nije. Postoje mnogo lepših stvari od toga.

U današnjoj ASD ni Bog nije autoritet pa shodno tome ne može biti ni Njegov prorok.

Hajde da se malo uozbiljimo i uzdignemo iznad trivijalnih prepucavanja i svađa. To što ti kažeš da u današnjoj ASD nije Bog autoritet, pa ni ona, možeš lepo da okačiš mačku o rep. Ja sam adventista 12 godina, i osvedočen sam i uveren da i pored svih pokvarenština u toj Crkvi, ona je i dalje Božja Crkva. Kao prvo.

Kao drugo - nisi mi odgovorio na pitanje, na osnovu čega je Egw autoritet? Eto malo sam ga preformulisao. Na osnovu čega smatraš (ako tako smatraš) da je Egw autoritet?

Ja uopšte ne znam da ZvonkoM ima neki svoj sajt, ali znam da je osoba pod istim imenom veoma aktivna na pravoslavnom forumu Verujem i očito jedan od onih koji vode glavnu riječ, a teško da se radi o slučajnosti, zar ne? A ti kao teolog ASD crkve si se dobro potrudio pred njim da kompromituješ EGW (kao i jezuitski teolog Bakioki u svojoj "knjizi") u odbrani "svetog oca."

Ne brini ti za mene, samo pogledaj sebe i vodi računa o sebi. Ja nisam se pred nikim kompromitovao, niti mi pada na pamet, ali znam kad s kime razgovaram, šta od koga mogu da očekujem, etc. I jako dobro znam napade usmerene protiv adventizma - 99% tih napada su tipično iznošenje prljavog veša, ono što ni jedan kulturan i civilizovan čovek ne bi radio. Ono 1% teologije je za malo ozbiljnije forumaše koji se ne bave prljavim vešom. O čemu bi da pričamo? O prljavom vešu ili o teologiji?

Nego da li bi bio ljubazan da mi kažeš ko je znameniti Bob Rock? Za tebe znam ko si.

Kakve to veze ima sa temom? Jel to opet neki poluposvećeni hrišćanin koga trebamo uzeti kao primer da je Crkva "otpala???"

Nego neko drugo pitanje. Da li si znao da je Mocart bio mason? Da ne kažem da je na kraju poludeo. A Celine Dion je pripadnik nekakvog kulta? To su inače tvoji omiljeni bednovi. Pa, prosto mi je čudno da si našao o drugima suditi, vaditi njegov (uglavnom izmišljeni) prljavi veš da bi pokazao kako su adventisti "otpali," a sam si fan okultne muzike. Dion ne bi slušao ni u paklu, a za Mocarta bi debelo razmislio. Sad si verovatno svestan kako se stvari mogu obrnuti na tvoju štetu, a to nije uopšte lepo.

Nego, ja nisam takav lik, ja ti samo pokazujem kako jadno i trivijalno izgledaju tvoje optužbe i metoda. Nisi mi rekao, kada smo već kod toga, da li je tačno to što te katolici prisvajaju za sebe? Jer, kažu, radiš ono što oni ne mogu??

Na kraju, za mene kao intelektualca je dno dna kada na ovakav način trebamo da diskutujemo. Ako smatraš da ćeš predamnom da budeš ubedljiv time što ćeš navoditi nečije "grehe" i slično, to je samo znak da nemaš zdravu i logičnu argumentaciju. To je strawman a ne dokazivanje. Ali naravno, pošto si izneo gomilu neistina o adventistima, iskonstruisanih i fabrikovanih činjenica, plasiranih samo u cilju pokazivanja adventizma u što negativnijem svetlu, onda je pravo vreme da se takve stvari malo više preispituju. Neću ja nikad biti adventista ukoliko se pokaže da je tvoj način "rada," odnosno tvoja metodologija i tvoji nazovi "dokazi" pokažu ispravnima. Moju reč imaš - javnu (ne teraj me da otvaram sajt sa takvim obrazloženjem), i trebaš da znaš da samnom možeš igrati samo na dve karte - jedna je čast i poštenje, a druga je ta što NE znaš s kime razgovaraš. Možeš da umišljaš da znaš s kime razgovaraš, ali ostavi to po strani, nego lepo, časno i pošteno želim da vidim snagu tvojih argumenata, a onda ću ti izneti moje stavove. A način/ton diskusije nimalo ne zavisi od mene, nego od tebe.

Izvoli, na tebe je red.

A zašto?? Imaš moju reč da ću sve što izneseš časno i pošteno, uvažiti, razmotriti, etc. Ja nisam čovek koji sam lagao ni u svetu, a ne sad kao hrišćanin. Nikad. Tako da, ako imaš neku istinu, svakako me možeš uveriti, jer mene istina zanima više nego što možeš da pretpostaviš, i NIKADA se nije desilo da mi Bog objavi istinu i ja da je NE prihvatim. Na to možeš da zaboraviš, nemoj da živiš u iluziji da si samo ti tako pošten i objektivan u odnosu na istinu.

Evo ti onda, vidiš li koliko je ođe materijala.

Znači, kada se citiraju anti-adventistički sajtovi, onda "nije bitno" ko šta kaže, a kada se citiraju adventistički autori, onda su oni kurvari, lažovi, masoni, nastavi niz?

Vrlo je bitno. Recimo da veoma dobro znam da pravim razliku. Na nekim forumima demaskirao sam razna antiadventistička pisanja. Isto bih uradio ođe i bilo đe drugo ako se radi o zloj namjeri i iskrivljivanju istine. I ne moraš se hvatati za provoslavlje, niti koga branim niti štedim kad treba da se progovori, što se uostalom može i vidjeti na ovom forumu.

Samo ne vidim koja je poenta navodno razotkrivanje nečijih greha?

Poenta je što te bitange "napreduju" u crkvi, i dolaze da drže "predavanja" mladim ljudima, umjesto da se naglavačke izbace iz crkve, kad već u demokratiji ne mogu pod mač.

Ja ne mogu i ne želim suditi drugima, da zalazim u njihove privatne živote...

Ne postoji nešto takvo kao "privatni život." Niko nije pusto ostrvo. Moja "privatnost" prestaje onog trenutka kad se na bilo koji način umiješam u živote drugih ljudi, uticajem na dobro ili na zlo.

Kao drugo - nisi mi odgovorio na pitanje, na osnovu čega je Egw autoritet? Eto malo sam ga preformulisao. Na osnovu čega smatraš (ako tako smatraš) da je Egw autoritet?

Autoritet je na osnovu Božjeg autoriteta koji je stajao iza njenog djela. Za razliku od toga autoritet ne može biti Bakioki ili recimo Dr Frum koji lažu čim zinu.

O čemu bi da pričamo? O prljavom vešu ili o teologiji?

Kad se prljavi veš ne opere nego se gura iza veš mašine onda imamo problem, usmrdi nam se kuća. I dok se taj veš ne opere ili izbaci, džaba kuću parfemišeš teologijom. O tome uči cijela Biblija, jeli ti poznato možda?

Jel to opet neki poluposvećeni hrišćanin koga trebamo uzeti kao primer da je Crkva "otpala???"

To ti je drugar neki, trebalo bi da znaš. Prema meni je jednom nastupio kao autoritet pitanjem "znaš li ti ko sam ja". I ja sam nešto pominjao i Taličnog Toma (izmedju ostalog) u odgovoru na forumu Svjetlost istine pa me moderator Nataša banovala.

Da li si znao da je Mocart bio mason? Da ne kažem da je na kraju poludeo. A Celine Dion je pripadnik nekakvog kulta? To su inače tvoji omiljeni bednovi.

Jesu isto kao što mi je papa omiljeni teolog.

a sam si fan okultne muzike.

Nijesam ni crkvene "hrišćanske" a kamoli okultne. Ne vjeruj svemu što vidiš Termin "fan" mi ne pristaje ni u kom pogledu.

Moju reč imaš - javnu (ne teraj me da otvaram sajt sa takvim obrazloženjem), i trebaš da znaš da samnom možeš igrati samo na dve karte - jedna je čast i poštenje, a druga je ta što NE znaš s kime razgovaraš.

Eto ti sad. Znači i ti si neki autoritet? Dobro onda, da čekamo na reakciju tvoje časti i poštenja. Istini za volju ni ranije mi nijesi djelovao nečasno samo što su ti nebiblijska teologija i crkveni ambijent donekle oštetili rezonovanje.

Na nedavno pokrenutoj temi o demokratiji u crkvi na forumu Svjetlost "istine", evo reakcije jednog od učesnika kad je suočen sa krivicom za nebiblijska načela u crkvi:

Problem je biračko tjelo koje na kraju o tome odlučuje. Evo primjera: Može na nekom izbornom saboru u odboru za imenovanje da se izmanipulira prijedlog za neke osobe, ali to je još uvjek prijedlog. Odluku donosi sabor ili skupština. Ukoliko ostali delegati nisu spremni i voljni preuzeti na sebe odgovornost i to ne izglasati, onda je to problem biračkog tjela koje je nezrelo za donošenje odluka...
Stoga problem zlouporabe demokracije u crkvi ja ne vidim u vodstvu, koji to zloupotrebljava, iako je ono najkritičnije, već u izbornom tjelu koje to odobrava.

Sheeple (dvonoge ovce) su dakle krive što im niko nije rekao da zapravo nijesu ovce već ljudi. Zanimljivo je da sam se susreo sa istom "argumentacijom" na jednom pravoslavnom forumu kad je trebalo birati ili popovi ili narod.
Oni malo duhovniji svakako će zapaziti upadljivu sličnost sa dokazivanjem u Edemskom vrtu neposredno posle pada.

Admin (citat):Na nedavno pokrenutoj temi o demokratiji u crkvi na forumu Svjetlost "istine", evo reakcije jednog od učesnika kad je suočen sa krivicom za nebiblijska načela u crkvi:

Misliš na sajtu svetlost (našminkane) istine, kako si ga nazivao svojevremeno??

Da si čitao ceo post od forumaša Davida, skapirao bi o čemu je reč. Ovako, vankontextualnim citiranjem si pokazao da ti je jedini metod pokazati adventističku Crkvu otpadom, što svakako je čista laž. Oni malo duhovniji će zapaziti to, siguran sam.

Pošto nemam previše vremena da se zadržavam na ovom forumu, želim samo da ti kažem da mi je drago što te Bog voli. Gledaću da se javim čim pre. Uživaj u Hristovom miru, kog od srca želim da ti Bog podari kako bi pronašao pravi put za tebe. Ja sam to sve prošao, sa Bogom sam se izborio, i nisam se trudio da mašem tuđim gresima (Rankovim posebno LOL), tuđim manama, nego sam sebe video kakav jesam i eto, Gospod mi pomože.

Poz.