HRISTOVA LJUDSKA PRIRODA I NAŠA PRIRODA

Zdravko Vučinić (citat):
On je postao čovjek u pravom smislu te riječi, i to za sva vremena. Isus više nikada neće biti što je bio prije utjelovljenja. On se zauvijek vezao za ljudsku porodicu. Mi vjerovatno nikad nećemo moći da shvatimo kolika je to žrtva bila za Njega.

ljuba79 (citat):

Zdravko Vučinić (citat):
On je postao čovjek u pravom smislu te riječi, i to za sva vremena. Isus više nikada neće biti što je bio prije utjelovljenja. On se zauvijek vezao za ljudsku porodicu. Mi vjerovatno nikad nećemo moći da shvatimo kolika je to žrtva bila za Njega.

Pozdrav,
razmisljam ovih dana o Hristovoj zrtvi, i nije mi bas potpuno jasno - kako je Hrist mogao da vaskrsne, ako je preuzeo nase grehe? Zar ne bi bilo pravedno da je stradao u potpunosti, kao zamena?
U ovom predhodnom Zdravkovom komentaru pronalazim odgovore, pa da sumiram - ako dobro shvatam(ispravite me) :
Stradalo je to Njegovo Bozanstvo pre utelovljenja...Ili? Ko je On nakon vaskrsenja, sem sto je Prvosvestenik, Sin coveciji - prvenac iz mrtvih? Vaskrsao je onaj "ljudski deo" - kako Ga naziva Bog prilikom pomazanja na Jordanu - Sin po Mojoj volji...On nije zgresio(posto je bio u mogucnosti - imavsi nasu prirodu otelovljenjem)...
Kazu neki da je vaskrsao iz druge smrti...Jasno mi je sta je druga smrt, ali i nije bas to da podrzavam tu tezu...Kako iz druge - kaznene smrti, koja u stvari ceka sotonu i nepokajane?
Hvala.

ljuba79 (citat):

Zdravko Vučinić (citat):
On je postao čovjek u pravom smislu te riječi, i to za sva vremena. Isus više nikada neće biti što je bio prije utjelovljenja. On se zauvijek vezao za ljudsku porodicu. Mi vjerovatno nikad nećemo moći da shvatimo kolika je to žrtva bila za Njega.

Pozdrav,
razmisljam ovih dana o Hristovoj zrtvi, i nije mi bas potpuno jasno - kako je Hrist mogao da vaskrsne, ako je preuzeo nase grehe? Zar ne bi bilo pravedno da je stradao u potpunosti, kao zamena?
U ovom predhodnom Zdravkovom komentaru pronalazim odgovore, pa da sumiram - ako dobro shvatam(ispravite me) :
Stradalo je to Njegovo Bozanstvo pre utelovljenja...Ili? Ko je On nakon vaskrsenja, sem sto je Prvosvestenik, Sin  coveciji - prvenac iz mrtvih? Vaskrsao je onaj "ljudski deo" - kako Ga naziva Bog prilikom pomazanja na Jordanu - Sin po Mojoj volji...On nije zgresio(posto je bio u mogucnosti - imavsi nasu prirodu otelovljenjem)...
Kazu neki da je vaskrsao iz druge smrti...Jasno mi je sta je druga smrt, ali i nije bas to da podrzavam tu tezu...Kako iz druge - kaznene smrti, koja u stvari ceka sotonu i nepokajane?
Hvala.

ljuba79 (citat):Kako je Hrist u otelovljenju mogao da cini cuda? Da cuje tudje molitve, misli, da isceljuje...Da li je to bila ona bozanska "polovina" Svetim Duhom zaceta - dakle kao punina Bozijeg duha u Njemu? Ili je On to jednostavno svojom velicinom vere mogao, jer ipak je bio Sin coveciji? Mozda se to i ne treba razdvojiti...I nama je obecao, da cemo biti u mogucnosti i gore pomerati...
Na Golgoti, kada kazemo da se Bog udaljio od Njega - da li to znaci da vise nije imao Bozijeg duha u sebi - pa otud ona patnja, krvav znoj, nosenje svih grehova covecanstva?
Koliko razumem, On je Svojim bozanstvom mnogima pomogao, ali sebi ne - jer tad ne bi plan spasenja bio validan...
Hvala...

PavleS (citat):Na sajtu IRI idu vezani članci pod nazivom Priroda Isusa Hrista koji će, vjerujemo, pomoći da se razjasne sporna pitanja koja muče mnoge vjernike.

Priroda Isusa Hrista (1)

Nebojša (citat):
Prvo pitanje je vezano za Isusa kada je imao 12 godina, kada se izgubio i kada su ga roditelji tražili. Kada su ga našli odgovorio im je da je normalno da će biti kod Oca tj. u hramu. Tada je učio ljude i svi su se divili odakle mu takva mudrost i pamet itd. Pitanje je, zaista odakle mu? Kako je moguće da 12-ogodišnjak sve to zna?
Još jedno pitanje se tu nameće. KAKO i KADA je postao svestan da je mesija, spasitelj, Sin Božji? Ako nije imao predznanje ili sl., kako je znao? Odakle mu ta ideja?

Nebojša (citat):
Drugo pitanje je odakle mu predznanje da je stariji od Avrama, odnosno da je Sin Božji, kada se raspravljao sa Jevrejima o Avramovoj deci itd.? Odakle mu ta samospoznaja da je već postojao ako se odrekao Božanske prirode i svetog uma? Kako je mogao da bude svestan toga, a da bi bio svestan mora imati sećanje, a ako ima sećanje znači da se nije odrekao svetog uma, jer u tom posvećenom umu je bilo to sećanje, a ne u palom. U palom je on novi čovek, nova ličnost, sa starim identitetom. On nikada nije bio čovek, a postao je čovek sa prošlošću Sina Božjeg.
A šta je ono što nekoga čini ličnošću? Pa zar nije um? Telo može da se menja a da ličnost ostane ista, ali da li um može da se menja a da ličnost ostane ista? Zar ne vuče to malo na teoriju o nepalom umu?

Nebojša (citat):
Ili je Hrist jedinstven slučaj? Ili je to tajna u koju se ne treba previše udubljivati, jer Lucifer jedva čeka da nam objasni

Nebojša (citat):Zbog čega je Isus rođen posredstvom Svetog Duha i Marije? Ako je imao palu ljudsku prirodu, i telo i um, zbog čega je bilo potrebno učešće Svetog Duha? Zar to onda nije nešto specifično, posebno?
Kako je moguće da se neko rodi posredstvom Svetog Duha a da bude "običan" čovek?

Nebojša (citat):Zbog čega je Isus rođen posredstvom Svetog Duha i Marije? Ako je imao palu ljudsku prirodu, i telo i um, zbog čega je bilo potrebno učešće Svetog Duha? Zar to onda nije nešto specifično, posebno?
Kako je moguće da se neko rodi posredstvom Svetog Duha a da bude "običan" čovek?

PavleS (citat):Članak Priroda Isusa Hrista (2) je malo popravljen i dodate su još nekolike bitne stvari, pošto je danas na brzinu pisan.

Wondrous combination of man and God! He might have helped His human nature to withstand the inroads of disease by pouring from His divine nature vitality and undecaying vigor to the human. But He humbled Himself to man's nature. He did this that the Scripture might be fulfilled; and the plan was entered into by the Son of God, knowing all the steps in His humiliation, that He must descend to make an expiation for the sins of a condemned, groaning world. What humility was this! It amazed angels. The tongue can never describe it; the imagination cannot take it in. The eternal Word consented to be made flesh! God became man! It was a wonderful humility.  {5BC 1127.2}

It was poverty that as He passed to and fro among the subjects He came to save, scarcely a solitary voice called Him blessed, scarcely a solitary hand was stretched out in friendship, and scarcely a solitary roof proffered Him shelter. Then look beneath the disguise, and whom do we see?--Divinity, the Eternal Son of God, just as mighty, just as infinitely gifted with all the resources of power, and He was found in fashion as a man.  {1888 28.3}

“In him was life; and the life was the light of men." It is not physical life that is here specified, but eternal life, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual received. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Lifegiver, takes it again. . . . But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself," (The SDA Bible Commentary, Ellen G. White Comments, vol. 5, p. 1130).  {LHU 261.6}

Foiled in the attempt to provoke Christ to manifest his divine power in his own behalf, and seeking to awe Him by a display of superior power, Satan bore the Son of God from the wilderness, and set Him upon a pinnacle of the temple at Jerusalem.  {Becho, November 15, 1892 par. 3}

It was Satan’s purpose to make Him doubt this word. If Christ’s confidence in God could be shaken, Satan knew that victory in the whole conflict would be his. He could overcome Jesus. He hoped that under the force of despondency and extreme hunger, Christ would lose faith in His Father and work a miracle in His own behalf. Had He done this, the plan of salvation would have been broken. {CTr 190.3}

"If Thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread." He promised that if Jesus would do this, he would acknowledge his supremacy and no longer contest his claims. The archdeceiver hoped that under the force of despondency and extreme hunger, Christ would lose faith in his Father, work a miracle in his own behalf, and take Himself out of his Father's hands. Had He done this, the plan of salvation would have been broken; for it was contrary to its terms that Christ should work a miracle in his own behalf. Throughout his life on earth, his power must be exercised for the good of suffering humanity alone. As man's representative, He was to bear the trials of man, leaving a perfect example of submission and trust in God. Jesus met the adversary with the Word of God. He said, "It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God." It was not for the Son of God to descend from his lofty mission to prove his divinity to a fallen foe, or to condescend to explain his humiliation as man's Redeemer. If the children of men would follow the example of Christ, and hold no converse with the enemy, they would be spared many a defeat at his hands.  {BEcho, November 15, 1892 par. 2}

"And when He thus had spoken, He cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth." His voice, clear and penetrating, pierces the ear of the dead. As He speaks, divinity flashes through humanity. In His face, which is lighted up by the glory of God, the people see the assurance of His power. Every eye is fastened on the entrance to the cave. Every ear is bent to catch the slightest sound. With intense and painful interest all wait for the test of Christ's divinity, the evidence that is to substantiate His claim to be the Son of God, or to extinguish the hope forever.  {DA 536.2}

Laying aside His royal robe and kingly crown, Christ clothed His divinity with humanity, that human beings might be raised from their degradation and placed on vantage-ground. Christ could not have come to this earth with the glory that he had in the heavenly courts. Sinful human beings could not have borne the sight. He veiled his divinity with the garb of humanity, but He did not part with His divinity.--Ibid., June 15, 1905.  {7ABC 444.6}

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,… 1 Tim. 3:16.  {FLB 48.1}

The incarnation of Christ is the mystery of all mysteries. {FLB 48.2}

In contemplating the incarnation of Christ in humanity, we stand baffled before an unfathomable mystery, that the human mind cannot comprehend. {7ABC 443.3}

There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. {5BC 1129.7}

We cannot explain the great mystery of the plan of redemption. Jesus took upon himself humanity, that He might reach humanity; but we cannot explain how divinity was clothed with humanity..--The Review and Herald, Oct. 1, 1889.  {7ABC 444.5}

But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness. The two expressions "human" and "divine" were, in Christ, closely and inseparably one, and yet they had a distinct individuality. {5BC 1129.3}  

This is a great mystery, a mystery that will not be fully, completely understood in all its greatness until the translation of the redeemed shall take place. Then the power and greatness and efficacy of the gift of God to man will be understood. 5BC p. 1113.  {7ABC 444.4}

The union of divinity with humanity brings to the fallen race a value which we scarcely comprehend. {ST, May 30, 1895 p:4}

The mightiest created intelligence cannot grasp divinity. The principalities and powers of heaven are overwhelmed with the vastness of the theme of Christ's character and the mystery of the union of divinity and humanity. {ST, June 27, 1895 p:4}

This union of divinity and humanity, which was possible with Christ, is incomprehensible to human minds. {1888 332.1}

The incarnation of Christ is a mystery. The union of divinity with humanity is a mystery indeed, hidden with God, {6BC 1082.4}

Divinity and humanity were mysteriously combined, and man and God became one.  {FLB 48.5}

(Col. 1:26, 27; Rom. 16:25; see EGW on John 1:1-3, 14;
1 Tim. 3:16). Beyond the Ken of Man.--Great is the mystery of godliness. There are mysteries in the life of Christ that are to be believed, even though they cannot be explained. The finite mind cannot fathom the mystery of godliness (Letter 65, 1905).  {7BC 915.2}

(Col. 1:26, 27.) An Unexplainable Blending.--Christ could have done nothing during His earthly ministry in saving fallen man if the divine had not been blended with the human. The limited capacity of man cannot define this wonderful mystery--the blending of the two natures, the divine and the human. It can never be explained. Man must wonder and be silent. And yet man is privileged to be a partaker of the divine nature, and in this way he can to some degree enter into the mystery (Letter 5, 1889).  {7BC 904.5}

While as a member of the human family He was mortal, as God He was the fountain of life for the world. {DA 484.1}

He came to our world and lived a divine-human life, {7T 49.3}

The life that He laid down in humanity, He takes up again, and gives to humanity. {DA 786.4}

In giving us His Spirit, God gives us Himself, making Himself a fountain of divine influences, to give health and life to the world.  {7T 273}

When man can measure the exalted character of the Lord of hosts, and distinguish between the eternal God and finite humanity, he will know how great has been the sacrifice of Heaven to bring man from where he has fallen through disobedience to become part of the family of God. . . . The divinity of Christ is our assurance of eternal life. . . . He, the Sin Bearer of the world, is our only medium of reconciliation with a holy God.  {TMK 35.4}

No man of earth or angel of heaven could have paid the penalty for sin. Jesus was the only one who could save rebellious man. In Him divinity and humanity were combined, and this was what gave efficiency to the offering on Calvary's cross. {1SM 322.1}

Men need to understand that Deity suffered and sank under the agonies of Calvary. (MS 153, 1898).  {7BC 907.2}

When God would assure us of His immutable counsel of peace, He gives His only begotten Son to become one of the human family, forever to retain His human nature as a pledge that God will fulfil His word.--The Review and Herald, April 3, 1894.  {7ABC 488.4}

When the voice of the mighty angel was heard at Christ's tomb, saying, Thy Father calls Thee, the Saviour came forth from the grave by the life that was in Himself. Now was proved the truth of His words, "I lay down My life, that I might take it again. . . . I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." Now was fulfilled the prophecy He had spoken to the priests and rulers, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." John 10:17, 18; 2:19.  {DA 785.2}

Over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, Christ had proclaimed in triumph, "I am the resurrection, and the life." These words could be spoken only by the Deity. All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are dependent recipients of the life of God. From the highest seraph to the humblest animate being, all are replenished from the Source of life. Only He who is one with God could say, I have power to lay down My life, and I have power to take it again. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death.  
{DA 785.3}

At the time when he was most needed, Jesus, the Son of God, the world's Redeemer, laid aside his divinity, and came to earth in the garb of humanity. {BEcho, Oct 12, 1896 par. 1}

He turned from his royal throne, his high command, and, laying aside his divinity, clothed himself with humanity. {ST, March 17, 1887 par. 12} “Rest in Christ”

The salvation of souls was the great object for which Christ sacrificed his royal robe and kingly crown, the glory of heaven, and the homage of angels, and laying aside his divinity, came to earth to labor and suffer with humanity upon him. {RH, November 21, 1907 par. 2} “A Call to Consecration”

He laid aside His royal robe and clothed His divinity with humanity, that He might clothe humanity with His garment of righteousness.  {ST, October 17, 1900 par. 8}

The Commander of all heaven, laying aside His glory, His kingly crown, His royal robe, came to our world, His divinity clothed with humanity, that in His humanity He might touch humanity.  {ST, May 7, 1902 par. 6}

Laying aside His royal robe and kingly crown, Christ clothed His divinity with humanity, that human beings might be raised from their degradation and placed on vantage-ground. Christ could not have come to this earth with the glory that he had in the heavenly courts. Sinful human beings could not have borne the sight. He veiled his divinity with the garb of humanity, but He did not part with His divinity. --Ibid., June 15, 1905.  {7ABC 444.6}

Christ came, but not in the brightness of his divine glory. He laid aside his royal robe and kingly crown, clothed his divinity with humanity, and came to live upon the earth as a man among men. Had he come in the full power and glory of his divinity, sinners could not have stood in his presence without being destroyed. {RH, September 13, 1906 par. 5}
Strongs; Heb 1:3 “the brightness of His glory” 1391 = can be exterior brightness. Glory can also refer to the position Christ held in Heaven.
Dictioary; exaltation, praise, honour, splendour, radiant beauty

He left his high command, he laid aside his heavenly honor and glory, he laid off his glorious diadem and royal robe, and left the royal courts, in order that he might come to earth to save fallen man. {RH, November 26, 1895 par. 1}

It must have been a very severe ordeal for our Saviour to lay aside his royal robe and kingly crown, and clothe his divinity with humanity, {The Watchmen; SW, September 24, 1907 pa. 2}

It was because the law was broken, and there was nothing but death before the sinner, that He who was equal with the Father, came to earth and took upon him the garb of humanity. It was because of man's sin that Christ stepped down from the royal throne, laid aside his royal robe, and clothed his divinity with humanity. {ST, September 23, 1889 par. 4}

It is called the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. His coming surpasses in glory all that the eye has ever seen. Far exceeding anything the imagination has conceived will be His personal revelation in the clouds of heaven. Then there will be a perfect contrast to the humility which attended His first advent. Then He came as the Son of the infinite God, but His glory was concealed by the garb of humanity. Then He came without any worldly distinction of royalty, without any visible manifestation of glory; but at His second appearing He comes with His own glory and the glory of the Father and attended by the angelic host of heaven. {HP 357}

He was all the while as God, but He did not appear as God. He veiled the demonstrations of Deity, which had commanded the homage, and called forth the admiration, of the universe of God. He was God while upon earth, but He divested Himself of the form of God, and in its stead took the form and fashion of a man. He walked the earth as a man. For our sakes He became poor, that we through His poverty might be made rich. He laid aside His glory and His majesty. He was God, but the glories of the form of God He for a while relinquished.  {5BC 1126.8}
He laid off his kingly crown and royal robe, and for our salvation *assumed human nature. {RH, September 26, 1907 par. 6}

That we might behold it and not be destroyed, the manifestation of His glory was shrouded. His divinity was veiled with humanity,--the invisible glory in the visible human form.  {DA 23.1}

As the high priest laid aside his pontifical dress, and officiated in the white linen dress of a common priest, so Christ emptied Himself, and took the form of a servant, and offered sacrifice, Himself the priest, Himself the victim. As the high priest, after performing his service in the holy of holies, came forth to the waiting congregation in his pontifical robes, so Christ will come the second time clothed in glorious garments of the whitest white, "such as no fuller on earth can whiten them." He will come in His own glory, and in the glory of His Father, as King of kings and Lord of lords, and all the angelic host will escort Him on His way  {1BC 1111.5}

Jesus emptied Himself, and in all that He did self did not appear...Human nature is ever struggling for expression, ready for contest; but he who learns of Christ is emptied of self, of pride, of love of supremacy, and there is silence in the soul. Self is yielded to the disposal of the Holy Spirit.  {MYP 162.2}
Jesus came to the world not as an angel of light; we could not have endured His glory if He had come thus. One angel at the tomb of Christ was of such exceeding brightness that the Roman guard fell powerless to the ground. As the angel came from the heavens, he parted the darkness from his track, and the sentinels could not endure his glory; they fell as dead men to the earth. Suppose that Jesus had come in the glory of an angel, His brightness would have extinguished the feeble life of mortal men.  {7BC 926.8}

For our sake Jesus emptied Himself of His glory; He clothed His divinity with humanity that He might touch humanity, that His personal presence might be among us, that we might know that He was acquainted with all our trials, and sympathized with our grief, that every son and daughter of Adam might understand that Jesus is the friend of sinners (ST April 18, 1892). {7BC 927.1}

The Divinity of Christ is our assurance of eternal life. {YI, February 11, 1897 par. 6}

Satan had questioned whether Jesus was the Son of God. In his summary dismissal he had proof that he could not *gainsay. Divinity flashed through suffering humanity. Satan had no power to resist the command. Writhing with humiliation and rage, he was forced to withdraw from the presence of the world's Redeemer. Christ's victory was as complete as had been the failure of Adam.  {DA 130.3}

Christ had not exchanged his divinity for humanity; but he had clothed his divinity in humanity, and he gave Satan the evidence for which he had asked,--showed him that he was the Son of God. Divinity flashed through humanity, and the evil one could not resist the authority of the divine voice, as Jesus said, "Get thee behind me, Satan; for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."  {RH, October 29, 1895 par. 6}

While upon this earth, the Son of God was the Son of man; yet there were times when His divinity flashed forth. Thus it was when He said to the paralytic: "Be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee." Matthew 9:2.  {8T 202.1}

The greatness of God cannot be measured or comprehended. And that doctrine that denies the absolute Godhead of Jesus Christ, denies also the Godhead of the Father; for no man knoweth the Son but the Father.  {ST, June 27, 1895 par. 3}

The manner of Jesus in working his miracles was very different from that of his apostles. His language was that of one who possessed power in himself. "Be thou clean." "Peace, be still." Neither did he hesitate to accept the honor offered him on these occasions, nor seek to divert the minds of the people from himself, as though his miracles were not wrought by his own power, for his own glory. But the apostles wrought miracles only in the name of Jesus, and refused to receive the least honor to themselves. They claimed to be only instruments of that Jesus whom the Jews had crucified, but whom God had raised and elevated to his right hand. He was to receive all the honor and praise.  {3SP 277.1}

But the Saviour had to suffer as man suffers. Had he exercised his divine power and worked a miracle, it would have been contrary to his mission. His Miracles were all for the good of others." His manner of working miracles was different from that of his disciples. His was by his own divine power, while theirs were wrought by his power. He received worship as God, while they directed all adoration to him in whose name the work was wrought, as stated in "Spirit of Prophecy," Vol.3, p.277



"In him was life; and the life was the light of men" (John 1:4). It is not physical life that is here specified, but immortality, the life which is exclusively the property of God. The Word, who was with God, and who was God, had this life. Physical life is something which each individual receives. It is not eternal or immortal; for God, the Life-giver, takes it again. Man has no control over his life. But the life of Christ was unborrowed. No one can take this life from Him. "I lay it down of myself" (John 10: 18), He said. In Him was life, original, unborrowed, underived. This life is not inherent in man. He can possess it only through Christ. He cannot earn it; it is given him as a free gift if he will believe in Christ as His personal Saviour. "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3). This is the open fountain of life for the world.  {1SM 296.2}

Nije u pravu. Ignoriše kontekst i jasne izjave Biblije. Kao kad se trojanci uhvate za izjavu EGW da je u njemu život izvorni, originalni nederivirani a ignorišu da sam Isus kaže Kao što Otac ima život u sebi, tako dade da i Sin ima.
Biblija jasno piše da je Isus imao oblicje Boga i da je to oblicje položio da bi se utelovio. To je bilo oblicje sveprisutnosti i svemoci. U njemu kao čoveku je nakon toga bila Očeva sila, na drukčiji način. Na način na koji može biti i u nama. On ignoriše da sami citati koje navodi kažu da je DAROVAN svim izvorima sile. On je raspolagao tom silom po svojoj volji, ali to ne znači da je to bila njegova sila u smislu u kojem je bila dok je bio u obličju Božjem, jer onda ako ćemo mi činiti i veca dela nego što je on činio to bi onda trebalo da znači da smo mi božanska bića. Samo zato što je rekao VI ĆETE ČINITI, ne negira činjenicu da u stvari nećemo mi činiti nego On u nama.